Women in Circuit Racing

[mountainstar]

Women and men have a lot of advantages and disadvantages over one another.

Being aggressive for women goes against their nature(hormones) and if you watch women racers you will see a lot of inconsistency in their driving and lap times. Plus when you add in door to door racing it all goes out the window.(kat legge and danica are prime examples)

Also women are insular, as they always look inwards and lack much situation awareness which also causes havoc on race tracks.

Women also lack the natural physical strength men have which in some racing series is very important, less so maybe at a club level.

However women are good organizers, making good co drivers in rally and also do well when competing against the clock especially regarding response times in drag racing.

Danica would have never made it to where she is based on results, so certainly in her case, her sex and supposed attractiveness(barf) helped.

In this day and age, men and women are apparently equal and yes as human beings they are, but they do have mental and physical differences and in the case of motor sport that will always work against them.

However I welcome and like women racing drivers and wish them all the success they can obtain.

[mountainstar]

sorry double post

[bestfit]

Being aggressive for women goes against their nature.

You haven't met my wife.

[Gaz170]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Christine Gibson was one hell of a steerer but unfortunately fits into the same Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda category as a whole heap of other female drivers over the decades.

It has nothing to do with law of averages, there are as many females as males interested in this sport although some are a bit shy to advertise it and don't readily come out of the closet.

No female ever has or ever will win a championship of a major importance, they simply don't have the gonads when it comes down to the bottom line.

They might make a bit of a substantial ripple on the surface for a while, but in the end for whatever reason, they always have and always will fail to deliver in the end.

What ever way you look at it, this is fact.

How many guys of the same era could you say that about?

Warren Cullen, Garry Rogers, Ron Dickson, Clive Benson-Browne, Alan Browne, John English, John Smith, Peter Janson, Barry Jones, Terry Finnigan, Lucio Cesario......need I go on?

the fact is, very few make it to the top of the heap, even less when you have a few dominate a series like Brock, Johnson and Moffat did around then.

[Nero]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Christine Gibson was one hell of a steerer but unfortunately fits into the same Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda category as a whole heap of other female drivers over the decades.

It has nothing to do with law of averages, there are as many females as males interested in this sport although some are a bit shy to advertise it and don't readily come out of the closet.

No female ever has or ever will win a championship of a major importance, they simply don't have the gonads when it comes down to the bottom line.

They might make a bit of a substantial ripple on the surface for a while, but in the end for whatever reason, they always have and always will fail to deliver in the end.

What ever way you look at it, this is fact.

********. If you understood the statistics you would see that there are many V8 supercar drivers and past touring car drivers that never amounted to much from their results as far as wins, let alone at a lower level. Then take into account how many women actively compete...however you are creating a closed loop. No woman would bother attempting a sport that she might be good at if she has to confront attitudes as you express in this thread. I have spoken to one of the current good women drivers mentioned in this thread and she noted that two other girls, that she felt were better than her left Karts simply because of the fathers of other kid drivers kept telling them that 'women are not as good as men' etc. I see your expressed attitude (I do not say that it is your real belief) as the real problem, rather than any particular failing.
However I might suggest that we (people who like motorsport) *desperately* need many more women to be involved in the driving simply to strengthen the position of motorsport in general when it comes under increased environmental pressure in the future. If it is perceived as just a 'sport for blokes' then you are going to have more than 50% of Australia's population (i.e. the women) not giving a rats arse about any logical argument about motorsports real or perceived worth.
Frankly one day I hope I can drive almost as good as Leanne Tander - I doubt many on this forum can do so.

[Nero]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Women and men have a lot of advantages and disadvantages over one another.

Being aggressive for women goes against their nature(hormones) and if you watch women racers you will see a lot of inconsistency in their driving and lap times. Plus when you add in door to door racing it all goes out the window.(kat legge and danica are prime examples)

Also women are insular, as they always look inwards and lack much situation awareness which also causes havoc on race tracks.

Women also lack the natural physical strength men have which in some racing series is very important, less so maybe at a club level.

However women are good organizers, making good co drivers in rally and also do well when competing against the clock especially regarding response times in drag racing.

Danica would have never made it to where she is based on results, so certainly in her case, her sex and supposed attractiveness(barf) helped.

In this day and age, men and women are apparently equal and yes as human beings they are, but they do have mental and physical differences and in the case of motor sport that will always work against them.

However I welcome and like women racing drivers and wish them all the success they can obtain.

Since I work primarily in the area of human development let me just say that you points about sex differences are not supported by any credible research.
As far as aggressiveness I have admired LT for her aggressive driving at a state IPRA round some years ago. But on another level perhaps you come along to my Judo club and spar with the 'non-aggressive' women there? As far as physical strength...how much do you really need? At training I watched a woman do 3 sets of 10 wide arm chin ups after sparing for two hours...I have seen some mature racers struggle to get out of the car after 5 laps of historic racing.

[Peter Mallett]

Just to demonstrate there's nothing new in motorsport I recommend you read about this lady who actually did take drives away from men.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...wpost&t=110718

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Nero

Since I work primarily in the area of human development let me just say that you points about sex differences are not supported by any credible research.
As far as aggressiveness I have admired LT for her aggressive driving at a state IPRA round some years ago. But on another level perhaps you come along to my Judo club and spar with the 'non-aggressive' women there? As far as physical strength...how much do you really need? At training I watched a woman do 3 sets of 10 wide arm chin ups after sparing for two hours...I have seen some mature racers struggle to get out of the car after 5 laps of historic racing.

I was privy to a lot of medical research that has been done by the US military regarding differences between men and women.

Women don't have the physical strength men have neither have aggressive characteristics to be aggressive over a long period of time.

If your point was valid, then women racers would have had equal success from the beginning of motorsport.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Just to demonstrate there's nothing new in motorsport I recommend you read about this lady who actually did take drives away from men.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...wpost&t=110718

And she was successful at rally. Women do a great job when it comes to competing against the clock. Door to door racing and it all goes out the window.

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

And she was successful at rally. Women do a great job when it comes to competing against the clock. Door to door racing and it all goes out the window.

Sorry but that is total rubbish.I can give you a long list of women who have won races.

[Peter Mallett]

Lombardi for one.

[Dasher]

Getting OFF TOPIC here, lots of women have won races over the decades but never a CHAMPIONSHIP of any real importance.

The discussion is about whether a female will EVER do it or not.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Rob29

Sorry but that is total rubbish.I can give you a long list of women who have won races.

I would not dispute that at all and by all means I'm glad women have. Don't think I don't like women drivers, because I do and encourage it. All I am saying is that men and women have significant physical, mental and hormonal differences and each has their own positive and negatives. In the case of women competing at high level motor racing, their shortcomings count against them making it harder to be successful.

If men and women were exactly the same, tennis, soccer, volleyball, golf, gymnastics, etc. would not be split into separate competitions.

To my knowledge, I do not know of a woman winning a significant motor racing championship anywhere in the world. And I don't see it being likely anytime soon.

I've seen women's telemetry from major open wheel series and they have a hard time being aggressive and consistent over one lap not to mention several and/or in a race. When I mean aggressive I mean hard nosed 10/10ths driving.

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I would not dispute that at all and by all means I'm glad women have. Don't think I don't like women drivers, because I do and encourage it. All I am saying is that men and women have significant physical, mental and hormonal differences and each has their own positive and negatives. In the case of women competing at high level motor racing, their shortcomings count against them making it harder to be successful.

If men and women were exactly the same, tennis, soccer, volleyball, golf, gymnastics, etc. would not be split into separate competitions.

To my knowledge, I do not know of a woman winning a significant motor racing championship anywhere in the world. And I don't see it being likely anytime soon.

I've seen women's telemetry from major open wheel series and they have a hard time being aggressive and consistent over one lap not to mention several and/or in a race. When I mean aggressive I mean hard nosed 10/10ths driving.

Physical I would agree with-mental I would not.Hormonal irrelevant.Point is physical strengh is not needed for motorsport,or equestrian,aeroplanes,boats,etc.Not sure why men & women golfers do not compete together-sounds more like ancient pregedice suviving?
That no woman has ever won a major championship,as has been said before is more to do with numbers.Few have this interest or means to start.
Not sure what you regard as a 'significant' series but watch for Natasha Gatchang in spanish F3. Bia Figuerio in Indy Lights.Leanne Tander in AUS-love to see her beat her husband in the supercars

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

.....
To my knowledge, I do not know of a woman winning a significant motor racing championship anywhere in the world. And I don't see it being likely anytime soon.
.....

Jutta Kleinschmidt won the Dakar in 2001 if that counts

[Nero]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I was privy to a lot of medical research that has been done by the US military regarding differences between men and women.

Women don't have the physical strength men have neither have aggressive characteristics to be aggressive over a long period of time.

If your point was valid, then women racers would have had equal success from the beginning of motorsport.

Equal success from the beginning....hah! given the prejudice at the turn of the century and in the most of the last century do you really believe this? How aggressive does a person have to be to drive a racing car? How strong do they have to be? They do not have to hump (carry) a 50kg pack and weapon nor do the have to kill when ordered to, though if you read your history you will note the effectiveness of the Russian women snipers and fighter pilots in WW2.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by Andy77

Jutta Kleinschmidt won the Dakar in 2001 if that counts

No it dosent as part of this discussion, as it was a stand alone race and an outstanding effort by Jutta and a lot of others who have one some big races, but we are talking about a significant championship win for a female and why a female has never won one.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by Nero

Equal success from the beginning....hah! given the prejudice at the turn of the century and in the most of the last century do you really believe this? How aggressive does a person have to be to drive a racing car? How strong do they have to be? They do not have to hump (carry) a 50kg pack and weapon nor do the have to kill when ordered to, though if you read your history you will note the effectiveness of the Russian women snipers and fighter pilots in WW2.

Nero, with all due respect in my opinion you haven't got a clue about motor racing and what it would take to win a championship.

We are not discussing WW2,soldiers or killing people & we certainly aren't discussing the woman's lib movement that you seem intent on pushing.

Women have been extremely good at lots of tasks in their time including what you have mentioned but that's not what we are discussing.

Please stick to the topic.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by Rob29

Physical I would agree with-mental I would not.Hormonal irrelevant.Point is physical strengh is not needed for motorsport,or equestrian,aeroplanes,boats,etc.Not sure why men & women golfers do not compete together-sounds more like ancient pregedice suviving?
That no woman has ever won a major championship,as has been said before is more to do with numbers.Few have this interest or means to start.
Not sure what you regard as a 'significant' series but watch for Natasha Gatchang in spanish F3. Bia Figuerio in Indy Lights.Leanne Tander in AUS-love to see her beat her husband in the supercars

Rob29,
When you say that physical strength is not needed in motorsport do you really know what you are talking about,you do not need a lot of it like a weight lifter, but you do need the endurance to maintain the level for longer, not to mention the mental endurance to maintain the concentration for the same period?

To say that men & women should compete together in golf is ludicrous on your part, because the females get flogged every time they do, eg. Anika Sorenson arguably the best female golfer ever, took on the blokes a couple of years ago and didn't even make the cut.

To say that hormonal is irrelevant is strange because it seems that females rarely produce the competitiveness that males do due to the hormone testosterone which cannot be produced by a female, I am informed.

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by Rob29

Sorry but that is total rubbish.I can give you a long list of women who have won races.

Yes you probably can, but can you give us the same long list of women that have won championships, no you cant, which is what we are talking about.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Rob29

Physical I would agree with-mental I would not.Hormonal irrelevant.Point is physical strengh is not needed for motorsport,or equestrian,aeroplanes,boats,etc.Not sure why men & women golfers do not compete together-sounds more like ancient pregedice suviving?
That no woman has ever won a major championship,as has been said before is more to do with numbers.Few have this interest or means to start.
Not sure what you regard as a 'significant' series but watch for Natasha Gatchang in spanish F3. Bia Figuerio in Indy Lights.Leanne Tander in AUS-love to see her beat her husband in the supercars

I would read up on testosterone and estrogen.

Physical strength is needed in motorsport.

I have followed Leanne career for 10 years and yeah I think she's pretty good.

[Peter Mallett]

As a corrollary to the number of wins = championships etc. Nobody would deny that Keke Rosberg was (and possibly still is) an outstanding racer, yet he won his championship with 1(?) win. Likewise Hawthorn. It comes down to percentages thus the question may be that women can win championships, it's just that there aren't enough to make an impact on the stats.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Nero

Equal success from the beginning....hah! given the prejudice at the turn of the century and in the most of the last century do you really believe this? How aggressive does a person have to be to drive a racing car? How strong do they have to be? They do not have to hump (carry) a 50kg pack and weapon nor do the have to kill when ordered to, though if you read your history you will note the effectiveness of the Russian women snipers and fighter pilots in WW2.

Have you ever driven an open wheel formula car with wings or ground effect for 10/10ths over 30 laps?

[Nero]

Since I am 203cm and 125kg I doubt that there would be a single seater in the world big enough, so no I have not done as you ask - nor would 99% of the readers of this forum. However I would add that single seaters are a sideline in Australia and not the main game. The sedan often use power steering as do many of the sports cars. I have seen Weber up close and he is fit, but not an overly strong man.
You place far too much emphasis on hormones or perhaps you do not understand their function. You as a (presumably) male person have a balance of both that changes over time as does any woman. The balance is different for different people. Would you be able to do 30 chin ups after a workout? I cannot.
I would agree with the proposition of numbers plus the filtering effect of choice lead us to where we are. Were motorsport considered a valid sporting choice for women, you would find those attracted to it would be interested and thus perhaps more likely to become adept at it. The filtering would occur at an early age as it does for boys with Karts...those with talent generally continue (if they have the money) those without talent filter out. Those that go through get better...we never have the same number of girls go through the same process. So we start off with far far less, they are repeatedly faced with opinions that they will never be as good a boys etc etc.

[db120176]

You'd get a lot more women in motorsport if you didn't make them pass a reverse parking test

Tongue firmly in cheek