The HTP (Moved from FIA Historics Thread)

[zefarelly]

Johnners, I was indeed referring to race cars, and I guess the same goes for rally cars which get an even harder life.

There are unmolested cars out there in road guise I know, I've recently contributed a lot of worm free tin to someone restoring an LC, just because it had suffered the usual substandard repairs duriung the low period of 70's and 80's back street MOT patches, the owner refuses to reshell and is honourably taking the painstaking route or replacing and repairing panels all over the car. where the line is I don't know, thats another debate entirely

I'm pretty sure a lot of shell swaps exist as well, ie an unmolested road car rebuilt into a restored old race shell and visa versa. Fortunately the unmolested cars are well cared for and guarded now and don't generally fall into butchers hands, and the racers find it more economimcal to repair and reshell from std cars. equally the availability of panels and quality fabricators means a restored repaired shell needn't weigh too much for competition.

Simons car prooves that, well repaired and prepared for racing and at homologaterd weight.

I have an unhealthy interest in LC's and GT's as well Johnners, but ana1 restoration doesn't float my boat . . . . this will be interesting when I do restore the GT I have in the wings, the earliest known car in existence, and its getting all my period bits as well . . . should upset a few part No watchers ! I might even paint it with cheap cellulose outside for the correct period finish and patina

[jonners]

Now I'm getting confused here - I promise to try to keep up in future but the merits of building a racer out of a 1200 2 door or a genuine car is where all this started and you guys must be on a different planet if you think there are any racing 1200's out there or genuine Lotus Cortina racing shells available - where did the idea of a 40 year history come from??

If you're going to build a car up from scratch you have to start with a road car.

And please don't think concours is my thing - I'd rather stick needles in my eyes - anyone who's seen the battlescars on my car would tell you that

Only one of the 40 or so racing versions sold by Lotus direct to paying customers is known to survive and it's in a private collection - the only other proper racing cars that survive are genuine ex works cars

As far as I know all Mk 1 Lotus Cortinas racing today were originally road cars. If I'm wrong about that I would love to know because as you can probably tell I don't get out much.

Actually, I can think of 2 exceptions - Andy Middlehurst said at one point he'd consider racing his Group 5 car but without the magnesium wheels and other bits - not sure if he ever did. He also has one of the 2 very very early works racers that Team Lotus entered at Oulton Park for the Lotus Cortina's debut - did he race that at Goodwood a few years ago or was it in a cavalcade or soemthing?

The other is a car I used to own that Peter Wray won the (?) 1998 Historic Saloon championship in - that was built from a genuine shell that I found in the mid 80's that had never been road registered

Originally Posted by zefarelly

restoration doesn't float my boat . . . . the GT I have in the wings, its getting all my period bits l . . . should upset a few part No watchers !

Restoration's not my bag either. As for your GT in the wings you might need to talk to my Dad again - his stock of pre crossflow goodies is dwindling fast - Geoff Howe manifold, Race Proved inlets, Race Proved filter casing etc etc all sold recently - he even let go a Timavo formula ford carb inlet thing that improves matters enormously on a single downdraft - he used to use a dodge with a downdraft when he was sprinting that nobody seems to know about these days and I was keen to use it in Pre 65's years ago but (quite rightly) everyone's only bothered about twin dcoes these days - apart from engine bits I think all he has left is a very nice (barely worn) Wooler - no good for FIA but am not sure what your other car will be used for.

[James Murray]

Jonners your absolutely correct when you say that the Lotus Cortinas racing today were originally road cars converted into racers. The point we have been discussing is whether a race converted LC had to be an original LC road car prior to conversion or whether a non LC could be built to LC spec and passed off as an LC and used in FIA historic events.

From what I have ascertained from this thread is that there are 3 types cars which are used for racing:-

1. A genuine road going LC converted to race spec.
2. A genuine road going LC converted into race spec but subsequently reshelled into a non LC shell due to wear n tear, but still keeping the genuine LC identity.
3. A non LC road car built up as a LC race car and passed off as one but with no LC provenence at all.

From my perspective the first type of car would be the best option to race followed very closely by the second. The third type is a complete nono.

This is a stab in the dark but I guess values between the first 2 cars wouldnt be that different preparation and competitiveness affecting the value more than provenece.

Am I being too simplistic here as expecting to be shot down in flames!!

[simon drabble]

spot on James - options 1 and 2 are preferrable and asto value you are again right. As always it would probably be cheapest to buy a prepped car rather than building your own up but that is a personnal thing as i can understand that some enjoy building their own car as they then know its is absolutely to their spec.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by James Murray

3. A non LC road car built up as a LC race car and passed off as one but with no LC provenence at all.

If you remove the words "passed off as" then I would have no problem with this.

As I explained some posts back, the revised FIA attitutde has somewhat reduced this problem. It has however opened the door to those who would love to race one of these cars but can't afford the ridiculously high price for a genuine car.

Therefore whilst the first two are preferrable the third choice is the most practical and indeed will provide many people with the opportunity to see these cars racing for some time to come.

Remember you still need to use the homologated componentry and although they will all benefit from improved technology a replica will be the same as a genuine car in all but chassis number.

Just don't be too blinkered in your approach.

[zefarelly]

I agree with the 1,2,3 list, its what I was trying to (badly) say earlier.

I have to agree with Peter, if your going to use and abuse a car racing, rallying, or hooning about or whatever, them option 3 is a sensible option if your not minted.

As an example I had a 2 door 1500 delux auto, had been butchered and fitted with 1600E guts when I got it, I reverted to correct MK1 Lotus spec suspension, steering and brakes, with a Cosworth spec 1700 precrossflow for my fun car . . . aside my time it cost me less than £2k, I never passed it off as anything other than what it was, and I could have raced it if I'd wanted, whats wrong with that ?

[zefarelly]

Andy Middlehurst built a replica of his own car when he last raced at Goodwood. I've not seen him out anywhere in anything since then.

[James Murray]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Andy Middlehurst built a replica of his own car when he last raced at Goodwood. I've not seen him out anywhere in anything since then.

He was at last years Oulton Park Gold Cup in a Lotus 69f2. I was next to him on the grid!! He appears sporadically in Derek Bell Trophy and Euro F2 races, but i've never seen him in the saloons.

[jonners]

Originally Posted by jonners

Only one of the 40 or so racing versions sold by Lotus direct to paying customers is known to survive...Andy Middlehurst...has one of the 2 very very early works racers that Team Lotus entered at Oulton Park for the Lotus Cortina's debut

And here they both are, entirely coincidentally...

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/cars/d...id=36192&cat=0

http://www.donrose.com/LC7070KO.html

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by jonners

And here they both are, entirely coincidentally...

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/cars/d...id=36192&cat=0

http://www.donrose.com/LC7070KO.html

Hmm I'm thinking . . .one to race, and one for work

and I might have change after paying off the mortgage, to buy a caravan to live in as well !