Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[AGD]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

What's most laughable is the, "That monstrosity doesn't belong in my Le Mans!" posts. Maybe you could turn to spec racing to keep the ugly little things out, then. Le Mans is perfect for the Delta Wing. I find it hilarious some of you are so scared by this little thing. I could understand it from the open wheel crowd, where the cars and the technology hasn't been revolutionized as much as evolved. But from the sportscar crowd? With the open rules and vast diversity of cars in the field? Good god. You'll still get your throaty V8's and your singing V10's. FFS, if you don't like it, just ignore it.

But the thing is that this car does not fit within the rules. It is a special unclassified entry designed to showcase special technology. The two reserves for the special entry are, at least IMO, more willing than this thing. Plus, there are the safety concerns.

V10s will pretty much be extinct at Le Mans next year. That's a different story though.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by AGD

But the thing is that this car does not fit within the rules. It is a special unclassified entry designed to showcase special technology. The two reserves for the special entry are, at least IMO, more willing than this thing. Plus, there are the safety concerns.

V10s will pretty much be extinct at Le Mans next year. That's a different story though.

How? They're normal cars with electric power. Pesca started that bandwagon 6 years ago. This is a potential revolution in car design. In every facet.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

No one cares about LMP2. No one.

Nonetheless, it is a class according to the rules and it is a fairly popular category. Well, at least in Europe it is. There's a good chance that a full-time LMS LMP2 team who has been loyal to ACO racing that could win the class will be left on the sidelines so the Sausagemobile can run unclassified demo laps.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

How? They're normal cars with electric power. Pesca started that bandwagon 6 years ago. This is a potential revolution in car design. In every facet.

I really can't imagine car manufacturers having any interest in that concept. At least there is interest from the OEMs in electric motors. The Deltawing concept can run in any old spec car class. It's not like it's a design that needs to be tested in endurance racing. An electric car going the distance with decent speed would be quite a statement.

Of course, ideally something like the 918 RSR or even the Porsche GT3 hybrid that ran at Petit last year would be the 56th entry. That would combine technology, performance, endurance, and sensual appeal.

[the real Stig]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I'm confused as to how close you could be when reading multiple links with interviews with the designers no mention was ever made of it having been a 3 wheeler at any point.

Close enough to know a bunch of stuff that never appears in press releases or forums.

[JAG]

Significant developments in motorsport have often been greeted with huge sceptism, mid-engine location, wings, turbocharging, carbon chassis, diesels, hybrids..............

Rather than getting hung up on the Delta Wings strange shape, the real story is the concept behind it, less weight, less power, same performance, better economy.

Imagine an R18 weighing 200-300kg less, with a 300-400bhp IC engine, supplemented by a 200bhp hybrid system, and downforce generated soley by sophisticated ground effects.

[kingkai]

Originally Posted by AGD

I really can't imagine car manufacturers having any interest in that concept. At least there is interest from the OEMs in electric motors. The Deltawing concept can run in any old spec car class. It's not like it's a design that needs to be tested in endurance racing. An electric car going the distance with decent speed would be quite a statement.

Of course, ideally something like the 918 RSR or even the Porsche GT3 hybrid that ran at Petit last year would be the 56th entry. That would combine technology, performance, endurance, and sensual appeal.

I'd rather seen the 918RSR or the GT3 Hybrid come as a demo entry! It should have been this year already. Wasn't Peugeot to come at this years LM with a 4th car Hybrid entry?... Instead we got the Hope-vision entry but that wasn't even sure of entering because the ACO got it barely eligible in time... Aren't they the ones who want progression to see a future clean racing series where people still enjoy racing and still can with renewable energy resources.. Why for heavens sake a kiddy car instead of integrating it into the current/future regulations... Want more spectators? Or do you guys have your hands full on those who come for the Audi/Peugeot(wanted AMR)battle and want to drop the number of fans?...
As much as I like the old rumbling V8's and whining V12's, thundering your eardrums down your bum while passing by, I understand that there is a need for changes. But do not make it a laughable showcase for nutters.
Is this the end already with the Fia barely invited to LM by the ACO, are times that bad to come with a landspeed car to LM. As much as I would like to see a demo of an audi/peugeot battling a F1 car for a lap. This isn't the right way of stimulating electrical cars which aren't into a current class at all.. What is the problem of electrical cars on the road and petrol engines @ LM?... I would turn in my petrol fuel for that if it had to be that way... As much as I dislike the whole hybrid/electrical car idea (where does that energy come from? from the sky?.. or just from a powerplant (what a eco friendly alternative to fosilfuel cars!...)

[The Badger]

Stallone already wants to do a movie about these things ..... sponsorship is lined up with Red Bull (gives you wings) , and Harrison Ford and Lee Majors ..... get to do the honors against the mad hatter brewing potions in his soup kitchen .

Utter ****in rubbish !!!

[kingkai]

Originally Posted by JAG

Significant developments in motorsport have often been greeted with huge sceptism, mid-engine location, wings, turbocharging, carbon chassis, diesels, hybrids..............

Rather than getting hung up on the Delta Wings strange shape, the real story is the concept behind it, less weight, less power, same performance, better economy.

Imagine an R18 weighing 200-300kg less, with a 300-400bhp IC engine, supplemented by a 200bhp hybrid system, and downforce generated soley by sophisticated ground effects.

Why not fit that into the current or new future regulations as a test base? I am only skeptic by the design and a bit about what is behind it. Not because the idea behind it is for a less weighing smaller engine with thus better output and hybrid technology. But why do this on something that stands far away from the sportscar feeling fans have.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by RichardRenes

I see a bigger problem: look at the width of those front wheels... combined they are about 1/3rd of the width of the frontwheels of other prototype cars! And less width=smaller contact patch with tarmac=less grip. No way they can steer this car through the various chicanes in anger. And I doubt as to wether the increased downforce the body of the car generates can make up for this.

Motorcycles have little contact patch on the front tire but they corner well.

Side cars single front tire doesnt have a large contact patch and it corners well.

It weighs 880 lbs compared to a 908 or R18 weighing 2000 lbs so that will help it corner.

I think it running LMP2 lap times is not out of the question

And if they give it a 60 liter tank it could go 16+ laps at the estimated 12mpg!

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Significant developments in motorsport have often been greeted with huge sceptism, mid-engine location, wings, turbocharging, carbon chassis, diesels, hybrids..............

Rather than getting hung up on the Delta Wings strange shape, the real story is the concept behind it, less weight, less power, same performance, better economy.

Imagine an R18 weighing 200-300kg less, with a 300-400bhp IC engine, supplemented by a 200bhp hybrid system, and downforce generated soley by sophisticated ground effects.

I'm not as skeptical about the performance of this thing than others, but there is more to it than that. We could get lighter cars at Le Mans if we allowed single seater formula cars, but that is not within the rules of the sport. The Sausagemobile is essentially a formula car (an ugly one at that) that has been modified enough to fit within the rules. Fair enough I guess, but certainly major manufacturers are not going to build "sports cars" like the Sausagemobile.

Originally Posted by kingkai

I'd rather seen the 918RSR or the GT3 Hybrid come as a demo entry! It should have been this year already. Wasn't Peugeot to come at this years LM with a 4th car Hybrid entry?... Instead we got the Hope-vision entry but that wasn't even sure of entering because the ACO got it barely eligible in time... Aren't they the ones who want progression to see a future clean racing series where people still enjoy racing and still can with renewable energy resources.. Why for heavens sake a kiddy car instead of integrating it into the current/future regulations... Want more spectators? Or do you guys have your hands full on those who come for the Audi/Peugeot(wanted AMR)battle and want to drop the number of fans?...
As much as I like the old rumbling V8's and whining V12's, thundering your eardrums down your bum while passing by, I understand that there is a need for changes. But do not make it a laughable showcase for nutters.
Is this the end already with the Fia barely invited to LM by the ACO, are times that bad to come with a landspeed car to LM. As much as I would like to see a demo of an audi/peugeot battling a F1 car for a lap. This isn't the right way of stimulating electrical cars which aren't into a current class at all.. What is the problem of electrical cars on the road and petrol engines @ LM?... I would turn in my petrol fuel for that if it had to be that way... As much as I dislike the whole hybrid/electrical car idea (where does that energy come from? from the sky?.. or just from a powerplant (what a eco friendly alternative to fosilfuel cars!...)

I think Jan Lammers said it correctly earlier this week on an RLM podcast when he said the green racing movement is hypocritical. You transport these things all these miles and then save a little fuel and call it green. Nonetheless, I can see a social benefit to green racing if racing can convince people that new technology performs well and is, in a way, as exciting as gasoline chugging engines. The 918 RSR does that. I think the Porsche GT3 did that as well. Maybe the Green GT or Courage could, I don't know, but I don't see how the Sausagemobile is going to do that. The thing is not cool and it isn't even relevant to road going cars.

My feeling is that the ACO wanted to fulfill their 56th garage plans in 2012 and the Sausagemobile was the closest and most surefire plan they had to actually meet deadlines. Plus, they probably like having the name Gurney involved in the race again. Whether it fit into their initial vision for the 56th garage idea or not became irrelevant.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by kingkai

Why not fit that into the current or new future regulations as a test base? I am only skeptic by the design and a bit about what is behind it. Not because the idea behind it is for a less weighing smaller engine with thus better output and hybrid technology. But why do this on something that stands far away from the sportscar feeling fans have.

2014 P1 regulations are expected to call for cars weighing around the 750kg mark, a fuel/energy formula, with mandatory hybrid technology, so plans are already in place.

The 56th grid slot is for unique concepts, like the BRM turbine and Chapparell fan car, some may work, some maybe adapted, some will be dead ends.

Modern motorsport is extremely conservative, whether the Delta Wings works or not, it's going to be interesting viewing, both for enthusiasts and the wider public.

Originally Posted by AGD

Of course, ideally something like the 918 RSR or even the Porsche GT3 hybrid that ran at Petit last year would be the 56th entry. That would combine technology, performance, endurance, and sensual appeal.

Within a few years hybrid systems will be standard in both LMP and GT, the 56th grid slot will be around for decades.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I'm not going to hold my breath as to the re-emergance of the D-Wing after the ICONIC committe rejected it but if it races at Le Mans it should certainly be interesting.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by Holt

Motorcycles have little contact patch on the front tire but they corner well.

Just like to point out that bikes can turn sharper than cars, but are not as quick through larger turns such as Porsche curves. Most if not all bike v supercar battles shows the bike being dusted in the turns.

On topic: If this is the future of sports car racing, no thank you. I'll take my money elsewhere. As for simulation videos, how much can I pay someone to make my Jeep do a 3:22 lap at la sarthe?

As for weight, why do we need the genital shape for that weight? I find it hard to believe that manufacturers wouldn't be able to design p1 cars several hundred pounds lighter than they are now if it meant a smaller car overall.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

I find it hard to believe that manufacturers wouldn't be able to design p1 cars several hundred pounds lighter than they are now if it meant a smaller car overall.

Apparently it hasn't been that long since we've had LMP675... so we should without a great deal of difficultly get cars down some 225 kg lighter than they are now. I think the biggest challenge is the weight of the diesel engines, and we know that the ACO couldn't put them at a disadvantage.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by AGD

I think Jan Lammers said it correctly earlier this week on an RLM podcast when he said the green racing movement is hypocritical. You transport these things all these miles and then save a little fuel and call it green. Nonetheless, I can see a social benefit to green racing if racing can convince people that new technology performs well and is, in a way, as exciting as gasoline chugging engines. The 918 RSR does that. I think the Porsche GT3 did that as well. Maybe the Green GT or Courage could, I don't know, but I don't see how the Sausagemobile is going to do that. The thing is not cool and it isn't even relevant to road going cars.

The point isn't that they're saving fuel or being green in every facet of the operation. The point is that they are creating technology and doing R&D at a hyper pace due to extreme competition between industry giants.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by AGD

I really can't imagine car manufacturers having any interest in that concept. At least there is interest from the OEMs in electric motors. The Deltawing concept can run in any old spec car class. It's not like it's a design that needs to be tested in endurance racing. An electric car going the distance with decent speed would be quite a statement.

Of course, ideally something like the 918 RSR or even the Porsche GT3 hybrid that ran at Petit last year would be the 56th entry. That would combine technology, performance, endurance, and sensual appeal.

They won't be going toward the less frontal area philosophy, but lightweight and low power to the extreme IS where they are going, and recyclable composites are the future or both road and racing cars. The Delta Wing also allows manufacturers to go racing with road going engines. If they are anywhere near competitive, this revolutionizes racing, not only opening the door for more manufacturers, but with open source tech, it also opens the door for smaller teams. The other two concepts will remain for the most wealthy of teams.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

The point isn't that they're saving fuel or being green in every facet of the operation. The point is that they are creating technology and doing R&D at a hyper pace due to extreme competition between industry giants.

True, I'm sure the level of development on those diesels has been tremendous. On the other hand, a spec car series making the claim would sound silly. That's a different story though.

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

They won't be going toward the less frontal area philosophy, but lightweight and low power to the extreme IS where they are going, and recyclable composites are the future or both road and racing cars. The Delta Wing also allows manufacturers to go racing with road going engines. If they are anywhere near competitive, this revolutionizes racing, not only opening the door for more manufacturers, but with open source tech, it also opens the door for smaller teams. The other two concepts will remain for the most wealthy of teams.

Weight reduction is part of the future (hopefully - street cars have become really bloated), but as mentioned earlier, we've had the low cost LMP675s a number of years ago in the past that had some level of competitiveness and the future will have mandated weight reduction. With that in mind, if weight reduction is the goal, why not go for a more conventional sports car package that incorporates new materials, etc.?

[Aysedasi]

Just a reminder that there is a dedicated '56th Garage' thread in the sub-forum. Unless we keep discussion in here to the Delta Wing thing, I'll have to think about merging/moving for the second time today.......

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Apparently it hasn't been that long since we've had LMP675... so we should without a great deal of difficultly get cars down some 225 kg lighter than they are now. I think the biggest challenge is the weight of the diesel engines, and we know that the ACO couldn't put them at a disadvantage.

Exactly, the light cars have already existed. But if I recall, the 675's had a lot of reliability issues. On the other hand i'm sure a team like audi or peugeot wouldn't have that issue.

as far as the "delta schwing" goes, if a team wanted to make a light weight car with crazy proportions I dont' have a problem with it, but I wouldn't expect other teams to follow.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

What a joke.

[gttouring]

My concern is the wieght and power vs. Safety cell of thedriver.how long would devlopment of this go on before that engine can make crahorsepower and speeds
I doubt safety will keep up as fast. That the problem for me. The small engine meansnothing as power gains can be massive. I expect tire failure before any handling issue.

[JAG]

A WRC engine and restrictor would give it around 325bhp, the aim is low drag and fuel efficiency.

As for the safety cell, it's a two seater, and renders show it's quite hefty, certainly larger than single seaters.

Some of the reaction to the DW is strange, spec racing and standardisation is so common place, anything out of the norm polarises views.

There's nowhere to hide for DW, it'll either work or not, if the latter they may adapt their design to a more traditional LMP form, yet still see some of the benefits.

Greater reg freedom in years gone by encouraged innovation, and some of the greatest developments the sport ever saw. P1 manufactuers are already at the cutting edge of design and powertrains, to qualify for the 56th grid slot a car is going to have to buck many conventions, if not why even bother.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by JAG

Significant developments in motorsport have often been greeted with huge sceptism, mid-engine location, wings, turbocharging, carbon chassis, diesels, hybrids..............

Rather than getting hung up on the Delta Wings strange shape, the real story is the concept behind it, less weight, less power, same performance, better economy.

Imagine an R18 weighing 200-300kg less, with a 300-400bhp IC engine, supplemented by a 200bhp hybrid system, and downforce generated soley by sophisticated ground effects.

I agree, I very much like the less weight, less power. I'm thinking Panhard CD and Index of Performance era. But form follows function, ditch the bizarre layout. DW has come to a arbitrary solution. Let's start with power reduction and less weight and see what shakes out: it will have 4 wheels in a conventional format.

[merlot brougham]

Wow. I've never seen such a bunch of whiners in my life.