Question : Was the Black/Yellow quarted flag used in UK Circuit (Car) Racing

[theracegypsy]

Originally Posted by johngee

I always understood that the reason (or the main reason) that the use of the black and yellow quartered flag was discontinued was that it was not used outside of the UK and it was therefore felt inadvisable in view of overseas drivers being unaware of its' meaning.
As so often - I could be wrong!

I much prefer the Dutch "Code 60" purple flag, again a single country solution, but it has the advantage of being self policed by the timing computer and ensures the cars stay in the same relative positions to each other during it's deployment.

[terence]

Only problem with flags of any sort is the fact that rather a lot of drivers think they do not apply to them! I often drive a SC,at a fairly recent meeting we were called out just in front of another car leaving the Pit Lane which placed him in front of the lead car. We exited the first corner whereupon the following car was waved by. Because of his position on track,I waved him past myself but gave him the 'slow' hand signal. Just as soon as he thought we would not be taking any notice,he got himself upto race speed,with the circuit in full Yellow condition till joining the crocodile!!!!. Race drivers? if they misbehave, shoot their tyres out.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

I much prefer the Dutch "Code 60" purple flag, again a single country solution, but it has the advantage of being self policed by the timing computer and ensures the cars stay in the same relative positions to each other during it's deployment.

Much like the new F1 regs?

Yes a good idea, only downside is if the cars are spread out it does not give the marshals a large gap in traffic in which to work...

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Speed Freek

I would have thought if somebody like 'The Fat Clerk' makes a statement you ought to believe it without judgement. After all, he is a Clerk, MSA Steward and a rather experienced marshal. Especially when he was clerking that particular meeting.

Only the Pope is granted infallability and even he has no immunity from dissent.

Regards

Jim

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Much like the new F1 regs?

Yes a good idea, only downside is if the cars are spread out it does not give the marshals a large gap in traffic in which to work...

But the idea is that at the speed they're running (60kph?) you just go and work in traffic - just post your lookout/lead marshal to direct cars at the incident.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

But the idea is that at the speed they're running (60kph?) you just go and work in traffic - just post your lookout/lead marshal to direct cars at the incident.

Not attractive to me and the main reason why I did not support the Battenburg way of doing things.


Regards

Jim

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by JimW

Not attractive to me and the main reason why I did not support the Battenburg way of doing things.


Regards

Jim

But it was the ideal solution had the drivers used it properly. The lead car acts as a safety car and everyone forms a tight train at a speed of around 50-60mph so the marshals had a time gap to work in, how hard was that? Very hard as it turned out and I never saw it work properly in all the meetings I was at.

[MaxxUK]

Thanks for all the replies guys, the question came up as I was talking to someone about the flags and the ARDS test and I mentioned this one. I was fairly sure I saw it in a very early (season 1?) Britcar race I did at Brands Indy, probably around 2003/2004.

Malcolm

[Terrible-Tones]

Sorry guys I am a little confused. Thsi was before my time I'm afraid. Was the idea of the black/yellow "battenburg" that once thrown (presumably at all points):

All cars slowed to a set speed but stayed in the same relative position to each other on circuit;

or,

All cars slowed up and formed a train behind the lead car who then controlled the pack - much like a modern safety car - but without the actual physical presence of the safety car?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Sorry guys I am a little confused. Thsi was before my time I'm afraid. Was the idea of the black/yellow "battenburg" that once thrown (presumably at all points):

All cars slowed to a set speed but stayed in the same relative position to each other on circuit;

or,

All cars slowed up and formed a train behind the lead car who then controlled the pack - much like a modern safety car - but without the actual physical presence of the safety car?

The latter.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Sorry guys I am a little confused. Thsi was before my time I'm afraid. Was the idea of the black/yellow "battenburg" that once thrown (presumably at all points):


All cars slowed up and formed a train behind the lead car who then controlled the pack - much like a modern safety car - but without the actual physical presence of the safety car?

but it never worked like that. In my first ever race which was at Brands this flag was deployed. The front three cars carried on at racing speed, excuse to CoC after was they thought it meant no overtaking, they were DQ'd. next car along did as he was supposed to followed by about half a dozen other cars. Then there was the pratt in front of me on a Sunday drive who pootled around at about 35mph and let the pack disappear into the distance. When the flag was withdrawn and greens displayed we were going round Druids bend and we then got lapped by the rest of the pack that had already crossed the start line while we hadn't even got past Cooper straight. We couldn't start racing until we'd crossed the start finish line so half the field was racing and half of us weren't able to.

[Mark Mitchell]

Instructions to 2CV competitors were slightly different..........they had to speed UP to around 50mph when the battenburg was deployed!!

[dave vass]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

but it never worked like that.
Then there was the pratt in front of me on a Sunday drive who pootled around at about 35mph and let the pack disappear into the distance.

Yes but that happens with the safety as well. I have seen the safety car stay out for extra laps in the hope that the pack which was held up behind can catch up! I can even remember a car being given a black and orange because he pootled around holding the rest of the field up, the reason given was that there must have been something wrong with his car for him not to be catching up with the train!

[Chigley]

My dislike of the "battenburg" was that it caused accidents. It could have been a very effective flag if some thought had been given to notifying drivers that it was going to be withdrawn.
More than one nasty accident happened when every lap the leaders would approach the start line at speed in the hope that the circuit was going green; the middle and rear of the pack also accelerating blindly to keep up. When the leaders backed off because the "battenburg" was still displayed at the startline the midfield who were still accelerating to keep up suddenly found slowing cars in front of them and "Bingo" the concertina bomb burst accident occurred.
Had a method such as today's Safety car green flag procedures or, all flag points downgrading from a waved to stationary battenburg then the mad dash to the line would have been prevented.
It could have been an excellent flag if some more thought had gone into its use.

I've still got mine and it's still in pristine condition as the battenburg was discontinued shortly after I made my flags.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Chigley

My dislike of the "battenburg" was that it caused accidents. It could have been a very effective flag if some thought had been given to notifying drivers that it was going to be withdrawn.
More than one nasty accident happened when every lap the leaders would approach the start line at speed in the hope that the circuit was going green; the middle and rear of the pack also accelerating blindly to keep up. When the leaders backed off because the "battenburg" was still displayed at the startline the midfield who were still accelerating to keep up suddenly found slowing cars in front of them and "Bingo" the concertina bomb burst accident occurred.
Had a method such as today's Safety car green flag procedures or, all flag points downgrading from a waved to stationary battenburg then the mad dash to the line would have been prevented.
It could have been an excellent flag if some more thought had gone into its use.

I've still got mine and it's still in pristine condition as the battenburg was discontinued shortly after I made my flags.

Can absolutely see what you are saying particurlarly with the, erm, withdrawal method!

To be fair I have seen accidents under safety car twice, and another one on telly, and also a very nasty accident caused directly by the reds being thrown.

I just don't think you can cover every eventuality. As I have never experienced it's (black/yellow) use, I don't know if the number of accidents under it was abnormally high?

From a personal point of view I would rather a SC. At least I know he is going to be driving at a reasonable pace. With the lead driver fulfilling that function, all I know is he might be driving at a reasonable place.....if that makes sense?

[tonyC]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

but it never worked like that. In my first ever race which was at Brands this flag was deployed. The front three cars carried on at racing speed, excuse to CoC after was they thought it meant no overtaking, they were DQ'd. next car along did as he was supposed to followed by about half a dozen other cars. Then there was the pratt in front of me on a Sunday drive who pootled around at about 35mph and let the pack disappear into the distance. When the flag was withdrawn and greens displayed we were going round Druids bend and we then got lapped by the rest of the pack that had already crossed the start line while we hadn't even got past Cooper straight. We couldn't start racing until we'd crossed the start finish line so half the field was racing and half of us weren't able to.

Spent a “happy” 3 hours lapping Silverstone as SC observer at the infamous foggy Britcar 24 hours . At one point we were getting messages to speed up a little to help some of the “bigger boys” keep temperatures up etc (following a deputation to Race Control I believe)

That was all very well until we caught an Astra tooling around at the back of the field looking completely lost. He managed to keep his speed up just enough to keep in front of us and was obviously looking at us as he seemed to follow our line a second or so after we had turned into the corner!

Still reckon we should have got a prize for the most laps led

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by tonyC

Still reckon we should have got a prize for the most laps led

Wouldn't it have been more if it wasn't for the 'comfort break' ?

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

From a personal point of view I would rather a SC. At least I know he is going to be driving at a reasonable pace.

Over the past few years I've seen some first class SC driving, but there have been a few who deserved to head butt my knuckles for their stupidity!

A good SC driver knows what their role is and exerts excellent control over the pack - which gives the marshals the confidence to work in the middle of the track safely. Others seem to be complete idiots who relish a few free laps in a nice rorty motor to show off and have fun. I've been at events where the SC was going at close to race speed and the pack struggling to catch him, never mind form up into a tight pack. Any control (SC or battenburg) can only really give us the safe gap in the pack if pit exit is blocked other than to release once per lap behind the leading pack. It also gets rid of high speed tactical SC pit stops & rejoins.

Bike SC rules work well with a zero board shown to indicate last SC lap - might mean an extra lap, but improves the safety at restart.

Given that many driver don't understand (or should that be give a #@#@ about) current flags, we'd really struggle to add another one to the collection.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Over the past few years I've seen some first class SC driving, but there have been a few who deserved to head butt my knuckles for their stupidity!

Yes I did see one once! But at least only once. I know that SC drivers have to hold a race licence appropiate to the type of meeting (ie Nat B, A, Int etc). Perhaps it should be a rule that the SC (for MSA meets) driver is also a registered marshal. A lot of marshals have licences - a lot of drivers are marshals. Not sure how this would sit with the MSA?

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Given that many driver don't understand (or should that be give a #@#@ about) current flags, we'd really struggle to add another one to the collection.

I have been thinking about this point quite a lot in view of this thread. I think it is easy generalise, but I see the points. Nina and I now have a load of friends who are drivers, from all backgrounds and we speak a lot to them about such things. The responses and conversations have been "interesting" to say the least. I think the situation is rather more complicated. I was going to post but I think it would be long and rambling, as I am inclined to do. So instead I have decided to scribble an article for our SM Newsletter to prompt discussion, which will hopefully be out in August.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Given that many driver don't understand (or should that be give a #@#@ about) current flags, we'd really struggle to add another one to the collection.

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

I have been thinking about this point quite a lot in view of this thread. I think it is easy generalise, but I see the points. Nina and I now have a load of friends who are drivers, from all backgrounds and we speak a lot to them about such things. The responses and conversations have been "interesting" to say the least. I think the situation is rather more complicated.

It's not complicated, HairyDJ is correct although I'd say "A few" rather than "many" drivers don't understand or care about flags but you only need one or two per meeting to completely **** a day's racing up. BTW for those that may not know me I am one of those on the black stuff, I may not be that good but I do try and obey the flags.

[theracegypsy]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Much like the new F1 regs?

Yes a good idea, only downside is if the cars are spread out it does not give the marshals a large gap in traffic in which to work...

There might not be large gaps, but
1) you know where they are

2) the cars are only travelling at 60kph, so it is relatively safe to be track side.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

2) the cars are only travelling at 60kph, so it is relatively safe to be track side.

2) the cars, you hope, are only doing 60kph.....

I just feel a SC is actually a real physical barrier, anything else relies on the drivers, who are a variable and unknown quantity.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

It's not complicated, HairyDJ is correct although I'd say "A few" rather than "many" drivers don't understand or care about flags

Yes, I see what you mean, though Nina (my wife) and I have many friends who are drivers, as is Nina herself, and we have had many a long discussion about such things around the BBQ on race days. I will say I am wholly surpised at the number of drivers (but not all as you say) who do not know what flags actually mean at all, or know some of the other rules regarding racing. Also the number who don't fully understand how a meeting is organised nor understand the hierarchical tree, which can affect them when called to CoC for instance.

What is not so simple is the reasons why this happens? After all, like yourself, these guys are perfectly reasonable, very intelligent guys and girls, and have safety as an uppermost priority. They most certainly do not "leave their brains behind when driving a race car". So it is the reasons behind why we see "stupidity" or lack of knowledge that I meant to describe as "complicated" and notthe act itself. I will write an article based on the discussions Nina and I have had with the guys. In my mind I think I know why this might be, but I am probably very wrong. So the article won't necessarily be a statement of fact, or right or wrong, but will be designed simply to provoke discussion, hopefully from drivers too.

Anyway I need to fill the newsletter with something LOL

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Anyway I need to fill the newsletter with something LOL

I look forward to reading it.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I look forward to reading it.

And then probably ripping it to shreds LOL

But hey ho, that is the purpose of writing the thing in the first place...