My DRS Theory

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Could they at least not just shorten the DRS zones then?

I get it. Some tracks, you need SOME thing. But making them bigger and more common is not the answer. It's such a short cut at the expense of real racing, and that's what worries me, because it seems quite deliberate to me.

DRS is an attempt to fix a problem modern F1 cars have made.

Low-downforce cars where people can still race each other:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMOYojQkHFE

Back in the 1960's, F1 cars at Spa were like that.

[alan1302]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

For instance, 2 people there today voted Spa a whopping 9/10. I couldn't help myself - I had to pull them up on it. It's people like that who are crippling the sport slowly.

I went for an 8 - enjoyed the race a lot.

I do apologise for crippling the sport

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Back to the original point, you can pass easily on the Kemmel straight without DRS or KERS. Spa doesn't need DRS. Double DRS zones are outrageous. Kimi is one of those few drivers who is an overtaking god. His car positioning is second to none. We need more Kimi's in F1.

[alan1302]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Back to the original point, you can pass easily on the Kemmel straight without DRS or KERS. Spa doesn't need DRS. Double DRS zones are outrageous. Kimi is one of those few drivers who is an overtaking god. His car positioning is second to none. We need more Kimi's in F1.

Not many of him about though

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by miatanut

DRS is an attempt to fix a problem modern F1 cars have made.

Low-downforce cars where people can still race each other:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMOYojQkHFE

Back in the 1960's, F1 cars at Spa were like that.

Well this is it, if the cars weren't so reliant on aero, then we wouldn't need DRS. I actually don't think DRS is necessary at all. There was no DRS zone from Stavelot up to the Bus Stop at Spa, yet plenty of cars were passing there.

As ever, the problem is partly the tracks, partly the cars, but mostly the cars.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I just think, why can't we try a season with no DRS and the Pirelli tyres, and see how we go?

Selby

[Woolley]

To me, the problem is that we need DRS because we've outlawed proper overtaking. In the old days, if you stuck your nose in just before the corner denying the line to the car in front, you'd done a good job and you earned the right to race the exit.

Now you get penalised because the guy in front takes your nose off because 'you weren't completely alongside'. So you need DRS because there's no other way to get alongside - especially since it's considered OK to weave on the straight. Even if you only move once, you're allowed to wait until the following car commits to a side and then block it.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Well this is it, if the cars weren't so reliant on aero, then we wouldn't need DRS.

If you look at various racing series, there is an inverse relationship between the amount of aero and the quality of the racing.

FF, Spec Miata, and various touring car series provide great racing. Some argue it's the presence of the fenders that make that racing the way it is, but FF is open wheel, which refutes that position. It really comes down to aero.

[luke g28]

Its because underbody aero is banned. All the winglets on top of the car are very sensitive to the air flow they receive whereas the underbody stuff isn't fussy.

The delta wing cars are designed to not be affected by the wake of another car, hence no wings

[wnut]

Originally Posted by miatanut

If you look at various racing series, there is an inverse relationship between the amount of aero and the quality of the racing.

The absolute rule!

The best racing cars are light, responsive and powerful - end.

(Aero just dumbs down the handling and makes the cars less responsive!)

[MoMedic9019]

Singlr plane wings, and no other aero would change a ton of things.

[chillibowl]

please forgive the antagonism...ive had a few drinks!

but what will removing the reliance of aero accomplish?

this is after all a series where the best drivers drive the most reliable race cars ever built and they line up in order of who is fastest.

all things being equal the only time you should see a pass is if the leading driver/team makes a mistake.

and if you are lucky enough to break that logic its because the following driver did something rare.

being rare is what made the all time greats great but you guys are trying to figure out a way to make what has always been uncommon common...which is what DRS does yet you are all lamenting its existence.

i really dont get this thread. im sorry.

[wnut]

This thread was about removing DRS in the belief that the DRS zones were too long and leading to artificial passing.

Taking the aero off would take away the necessity of using artificial passing aids.

Please keep up Chillibowl.

[chillibowl]

im trying to but if you get rid of the artificial passing all you have left is watching a race where you hope drivers make mistakes so you get passing.

still confused.

ill blame it on the drinks

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by wnut

Taking the aero off would take away the necessity of using artificial passing aids.

Please keep up Chillibowl.

And as Chillibowl said taking away artificial passing aids would probably take away passing. Is that really what the non-technical fans want?
I'm a technical nut and I will always prefer to see the best engine/chassis/driver combination demonstrate their dominance. If that is by a lap or so, well I got used to that in the early days, so I won't be disappointed.
And as Chillibowl said, we are watching the most reliable, and capable inside the regs, cars that ever competed at the top level. Why whinge?

[littleman]

Modern F1 cars are without doubt technically brilliant.What the sport and rulemakers have failed to realise though is that they're not actually any good for "racing".

They are probably more suited to displays or demonstration runs - a sort of high-tec show of engineering excellence.

The slightest damage to any aero part and they stop working properly,they can all brake far too late, shifting gears is childs play, getting a good start is software controlled and any attempt to overtake will probably receive a penalty.

Only a total re think of what F1 is supposed to be is going to change things.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I'm whinging because we haven't had a fair experiment.

In Science at school (bear with me), I was always reminded 'we have to have a fair experiment'.

F1 have these Pirelli tyres which have been used since DRS's inception.

Why haven't done a 'fair test' and seen what we get with Pirelli tyres, but WITHOUT DRS?

Selby

[littleman]

Your point is a fair one but it still smacks of contrived racing.Something neither the spectators, or drivers, seem to enjoy.

I'm convinced only a huge change to aero regs will have a major influence.The FIA write the rule book - there is nothing that says all F1 cars must have massive, sophisticated front & rear wings.Considerably reduce them or remove them altogether - cars would look odd at first but we'd all get used to them.

The aero in F1 has no real impact on road cars so it's a very specialised, niche form of engineering that doesn't serve a wider purpose for the motor industry in general.

[ECW Dan Selby]

But we want to keep those spectacular cornering speeds. I totally understand that.

So we can't we let the Pirelli's do what they're meant to do and add a variable (as we've said goodbye to refuelling) that's the same for all teams, and rid of the DRS which gives one driver a way too OTT speed boost and rids of the art of overtaking completely?

Overtaking is one of the biggest skills in F1. That, along with wet weather racing, is starting to become a thing of the past.

How sad is that?

Selby

[wnut]

From
http://www.crash.net/f1/feature/179507/1/overtaking_in_f1_2012_-_the_facts.html


"For many years, a Grand Prix in Barcelona was synonymous with almost no overtaking - there were an average of just two overtaking moves per race between 2008 and 2010.

That all changed last year: not only did 'normal' (i.e. non-DRS assisted) overtakes increase by a factor of ten - with a total of 22 - but DRS enabled a further 29 overtakes, for a race total of 51; in other words, 25 times more than in the previous three years."

Whatever anyone says about DRS, I think we are better off for it!

The parades were unwatchable, and DRS seems to aid passing in the non DRS zones too.

[Sodemo]

Remember when you used to get actual real wheelspin at the start of races? (with tyre smoke and so on). When a driver could get totally bogged down and lose 5-6 places at the start because of a bad getaway. I remember the Suzuka 1996 race, when JV did exactly that. He was on the front row, but got a nightmare start and was in about 7th by turn 1. Then we saw him fight back towards the front. Its that kind of thing which we are missing now from the sport.

What ever happened to the notion that F1 starts should be fully controlled by the driver? Why do we have these "start maps" when all they really are is launch control by another name?

[alan1302]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Overtaking is one of the biggest skills in F1. That, along with wet weather racing, is starting to become a thing of the past.

I disagree.

The best drivers still do the best overtaking - you only need to look at Raikonnen on Sunday to see how good he is. DRS just stops people being blocked for the whole race which is incredibly tedious to watch. It does not mean the quick drivers can't stay in front.

And they still race in the wet when it's safe to do so - better than getting someone killed.

[wolfhound]

The other thing to factor in to the increase in overtaking is KERS. It is much more strategic in use as it depends on where and when the driver chooses to use it.
With DRS reach the straight open flap and whizz by the car in front (well its not quite that simple but...).

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Remember when you used to get actual real wheelspin at the start of races? (with tyre smoke and so on). When a driver could get totally bogged down and lose 5-6 places at the start because of a bad getaway. I remember the Suzuka 1996 race, when JV did exactly that. He was on the front row, but got a nightmare start and was in about 7th by turn 1. Then we saw him fight back towards the front. Its that kind of thing which we are missing now from the sport.

What ever happened to the notion that F1 starts should be fully controlled by the driver? Why do we have these "start maps" when all they really are is launch control by another name?

Hey Sodemo, here is a tip, watch Mark Webber!

Race after race after race after ....

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

I personally think that we need DRS because of the way drivers are now taught to defend.

It's because motorsport is getting safer, isn't it? They don't have the same respect, because one false move won't kill both of them. This is why drivers always find it acceptable to weave about when they're being overtaken. One move and one move only, even before braking. Mark Webber against Vettel at Malaysia was a perfect example of defending. Recognise Vettel can only pass up the inside, cut off the inside. Whilst Vettel still got through (either brave or foolish). Perez on Grosjean was forceful, a bit too forceful, but at the end of the day, Grosjean was within the white lines that rule what's the track.

However, I watched the BRDC F4 highlights from Snetterton. The amount of random weaving, forcing people who have got a run on you onto the grass, and nose-cutting that those guys did was ridiculous. Are Jake Hughes and Ross Gunn the only remotely sane guys on the grid? It's this problem - and the fact it isn't dealt with - that could be another factor in DRS. Driving like that caused Chris van der Drift's horror crash at Brands Hatch. To a certain extent, that killed Gilles Villeneuve. That caused Danny Watt's horror crash at Oulton Park, and Conor Daly's enormous accident at Monaco. The fact that nobody does anything about this until there is an accident is ridiculous, but the fact that young guys are TAUGHT to do that makes the whole thing a joke. If you want to defend your position, do it properly, not by crashing the other guy off. They do need room on the racetrack.