NASCAR Cup Round 22: Heluva Good! Sour Cream Dips at The Glen-Watkins Glen Int'l

[St00ge]

Finally the luck rolls his way in the last few laps, you ****ing beauty...

[Tourer]

So BLOODY fantastic to be up at 2:35 AM here in Sydney to see Marcos win his first - heart rate was right up for those last laps - brilliant!

Very glad to see the guys step out of their cars after that wreck - scary.

[nickyf1]

Damn good race! Perfect late afternoon viewing too.

Can't believe Amrbose finally got that win, despite being so far down at one point!

[rustyfan]

Video of Menard's high-speed blow out coming out of the Esses: http://www.nascar.com/video/post-rac...our/index.html

Video highlights of the last couple of laps (including the pile-up): http://www.nascar.com/video/post-rac...nal/index.html

[rustyfan]

Boris Said gave a pretty fantastic post-race interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsSjR...layer_embedded

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Wouldn't it be much better to run a bunch of speedway cars, with speedway drivers on a very fast and wet road course to see how many cars they could wreck?

Should NASCAR explore wet tires for the Cup series? They are in the NW series, and it has pros and cons.

Perhaps one day they will be able to run a wet race on a road course successfully, but I would much rather prefer a day delayed race on a dry track to see good racing, instead of shoe horning it in on a wet track just because proper road racing protocol dictates you should.

This is NASCAR after all.

It's not as simple as just 'bolting on a set of tyres', and I'm suprised that Chad of all people would come up with a bull comment like that. Try adding wipers, demister systems, and a rain light to the list. Oh, and you'd better make sure your radio is well tucked away...

[fieldodreams79]

Great finish! Congrats to Taz! And congrats to RPM as well!!! Anyone want to question Taz not running the NW race now???

Kyle finally got himself, but at least it is the only time he admitted to a mistake, from my memory. I think everyone here knows I loath Kyle but after his mistake going into one, getting wide, two tires in the grass, banging off Taz, jumping off an access road and still passes John Paul on the outside going up the esses, I'll throw the kid a bone there; that was impressive.

Some awful, scary looking accidents; glad to see everyone mostly OK, but they seem to be getting worse and worse at the Glen every year. Let's let 'em run in the rain to make it worse; what do you say?

David Regan has seen better walls at dirt tracks in south Georgia.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Cynic

It's not as simple as just 'bolting on a set of tyres', and I'm suprised that Chad of all people would come up with a bull comment like that. Try adding wipers, demister systems, and a rain light to the list. Oh, and you'd better make sure your radio is well tucked away...

Exactly...so we should run an experiment with it during the middle of a championship season??? Maybe they can have a test day at a Bernie Sprinkler Track?

It will take a "NASCAR year" to figure it out (a NASCAR year = a decade). I feel they are building into it every time the NW series RACES in the wet, but as you state, you can't just flick a switch and run 43 3800 pound, 800 HP stockcars in the wet. And it's not only the officials that have to figure out to handle the wet, most importantly, it is the drivers (and crews), some of whom have NEVER raced in the wet.

Really, only Watkins Glen is where it will be needed for the Cup Series as the summers in Sonoma are pretty much dry. If the track itself was updated, and the right add ons can be installed in the cars, I'd say let 'em race in the wet, but I think today proved that entire Watkins Glen circuit needs work before the series returns, and especially before they race there in the wet.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I forgot to set the DVR, so I won't be watching this one. Neither will anyone else.

That's too bad for you and everyone else. Wait, you and everyone else will be able to see it repeated every night this week.

[Purist]

I'm not sure what you want them to do at the Glen. They just did a multi-million-dollar works project on the place. Of course, those paved run-offs are useless when you have no brakes. And no, with that steep hill back there, there's no realistic way to add run-off room at Turn 2.

[gomick]

Woohoo - congrats Marcos, monkey of the back now

Great racing, they need more road courses for sure... Kurt Busch got his for ramming Allmendinger too - poo driving by the #22.
Great drives by Keselowski & Kyle - wouldnt have a problem at all if Kyle won the title, would prefer him over the #99...
Boris Said - funny stuff, guess the camera will always be on Biffle to see if he turns up with a black eye, get onboard sponsors

Now, can Ambrose have a golden run & make the chase

[Trev Campbell]

Great Race by Ambrose, Keselowski & Kyle, But Fantastic result for Marcos after a few heartbreakers. Hopefully now he's won he'll really take off like he did in the V8's.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm not sure what you want them to do at the Glen. They just did a multi-million-dollar works project on the place. Of course, those paved run-offs are useless when you have no brakes. And no, with that steep hill back there, there's no realistic way to add run-off room at Turn 2.

Two years in row (last year in the NW race), someone has been turned into the wall that juts out in between 1 and 2 which have resulted in massive accidents. So for starters, that wall can be moved back.

Other than that, I am not sure what I want them to do either to a "state of the art track" for the 1960s; I've never been to the place before. I have just seen the severity and frequency of accidents increase over the passed few years. The bus stop was the result of some serious accidents going into the outer loop so they will figure something out.

David Regan's comments that he has seen better walls at some dirt tracks made me laugh, but also has merit---granted the guy just pancaked the right side of his car against one of the walls.

I love the place; it's fast and tough, but they at least need to consider spending more money to improve the safety as does every track.

[nickyf1]

From NASCAR.com. I have highlighted a part which I have some issues with.

"You're obviously traveling fast. This is obviously the fastest road course," said Ragan, involved in a spectacular four-car accident that marred the race's final lap. "It's crazy, though, in this day and age to not have SAFER barriers and a little better design. That guardrail and all has probably been here since the 1900s when this race track was built. It's kind of absurd. There are dirt tracks that have better SAFER barriers and wall systems."

What the hell is he talking about!?

Its a road course. The access road folds need to be changed. SAFER barriers are for concrete walls on ovals. A SAFER barrier wouldn't be any better than the flexible armco they already have.

[fieldodreams79]

^ Those armcos outside of turn one going towards two have massive concrete piers to hold the catch fencing, which just about defeats the purpose of a flexible armco...look at Hamlin's accident too. They gave a little more than concrete walls do, but not much.

But I agree, SAFER barriers belong on ovals where it is damn near impossible to have any other sort of soft wall system in place.

[St00ge]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

Great finish! Congrats to Taz! And congrats to RPM as well!!! Anyone want to question Taz not running the NW race now???

http://www.nascar.com/news/110812/ha...len/index.html

From that article I pickup that he really did want to run the NW but was outside of his control...

But who care now tho as he got his Cup win




Regarding the track, how many other race series run on Watkins Glen that have these big accidents and question the safety of the track?? I think it is more the attitude of Cup drivers who don't think about the consequences of their actions more than the race track being unsafe... I think they feel they have the right to turn people and cause these big accidents and it is up the the safer barrier and car to keep the driver safe after the incident rather than avoid the incident in the first place...

[mac]

Boris was right - Ragan drifted wide on the exit and left him with absolutely no room. Boris appeared to be merely trying to keep his car on the circuit...

I know its the NASCAR automatic reaction to scream, "Driver X got in to Driver Y!"

It may be hard for some of the oval specialists that don't have much clue on road courses to comprehend, but Boris's left wheels were on the white line - was Boris supposed to make his car disappear!?

For Biffle to carry on like he did (about an incident that was 50/50 at best) was ridiculous... Even Ragan (who was the guy that actually got wrecked) basically said they all went through the turn hard and what happened happened...

[Purist]

DING! DING! We have a winner, St00ge! Dirivers NEED to show greater respect on track, no excuses!

Temporary, Jersey barrier walls have some give. Solid, continuous concrete walls, like you have at ovals, do NOT give in any noticeable manner at all.

FWIW, the exit of the final corner does have a short SAFER barrier, but I don't see the point putting it elsewhere, as it really wouldn't do anything more to decrease the impact than what is already there. Besides, it's a road course, not an oval. Also, that SAFER barrier is fully separate from the armco, which leaves NO room on the outside between the tarmac and the barrier at that point.

And the funny thing is, the guys complained bitterly about the boiler plate walls at Pocono, and now, that's basically what we have in the corners at all the ovals, complete with the need for a 1-2 hour red flag to fix the wall after a significant incident.

Anyway, the guys shouldn't be hanging wheels off the tarmac that far from Turn 1, period. If the run-off already there isn't sufficient for these guys, then NOTHING ever will be, so there's no point adding more.

Finally, something else occurs to me that just seems downright stupid. These guys are complaining about that point when, on ovals, they'd be going MUCH faster, with LESS forgiving walls, with LESS run-off room! Why the hell aren't they complaining about lack of safety at the ovals?!

[mac]

Great win by Marcos! It was always a matter of when, not if... Let's hope he and the team can carry on to even bigger and better things from here!

And Keselowski!?!? With a broken ankle... Two weeks in a row... Unbelievable stuff!

[tlongman]

Great win by Marcos! Well deserved and long overdue. This race was just more proof that NASCAR needs more road courses.

[nickyf1]

Originally Posted by Purist

Finally, something else occurs to me that just seems downright stupid. These guys are complaining about that point when, on ovals, they'd be going MUCH faster, with LESS forgiving walls, with LESS run-off room! Why the hell aren't they complaining about lack of safety at the ovals?!

Yeah, I totally agree.

Fortunately the road racers in the pack said that there was nothing wrong with Watkins Glen. Both Marcos Amrbose and Ron Fellows said this.

[hotlavaaaa]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

SAFER barriers are for concrete walls on ovals. A SAFER barrier wouldn't be any better than the flexible armco they already have.

The SAFER barrier at Iowa Speedway has no concrete wall behind it. I'm pretty sure all of the new SAFER barrier at Pocono is built the same way. How would a wall system that is designed to absorb impacts not be safer than an armco?

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by St00ge

Regarding the track, how many other race series run on Watkins Glen that have these big accidents and question the safety of the track?? I think it is more the attitude of Cup drivers who don't think about the consequences of their actions more than the race track being unsafe... I think they feel they have the right to turn people and cause these big accidents and it is up the the safer barrier and car to keep the driver safe after the incident rather than avoid the incident in the first place...

Originally Posted by Purist

DING! DING! We have a winner, St00ge! Dirivers NEED to show greater respect on track, no excuses!

While this is a good point, how does NASCAR enforce "respect" under their current rules system of "have at it"? Kurt Busch dumps AJ Almindinger completely from the rear at the bus stop and doesn't even get a warning, based on what we saw. How exactly do you "respect" someone on the last lap racing hard as Boris and David were doing? I guess we'd prefer to see respectful nose to tail racing all day, with guys waving guys passed?

Originally Posted by Purist

Anyway, the guys shouldn't be hanging wheels off the tarmac that far from Turn 1, period. If the run-off already there isn't sufficient for these guys, then NOTHING ever will be, so there's no point adding more.

You know as will as anybody if you pave it, they will use it; that is the same for ALL forms of motorracing-perhaps the solution is to enforce "over the curb" rules. Even still, it is more of the angle the wall and how returns to track that concerns me, not how guys race. Off turn 1 towards the esses is where track position and momentum are extremely important, in all forms of racing, and guys going hard for that position can sometimes make "respectful" contact.

Originally Posted by nickyf1

Fortunately the road racers in the pack said that there was nothing wrong with Watkins Glen. Both Marcos Amrbose and Ron Fellows said this.

And I am sure a lot road racers thought the outer loop with no bus stop was safe even after Tommy Kendall's accident and JD McDuffie was killed there. After the Gordon/Hornish wreck in 09, they made some changes coming out of the outer loop, so I am sure it will be considered by the owners of the Glen; sure the NASCAR event is pretty important to their bottom line.

History has repeated itself twice there. All I am saying is that they should consider doing something about the wall that has contributed to two serious accidents two years in a row.

[rustyfan]

I think what 'fools' a lot of people is the fact that we rarely see high speed head-on impacts like Denny Hamlin's yesterday into SAFER barriers - the closest we've come are crashes like McDowell's at Texas or Carmichael's at Dover Downs, but they also involve a lot of sideways momentum at the time of the impacts, allowing the SAFER barrier to direct the cars away and dissapate a lot of the energy that way. A true head-on impact wouldn't allow that and although the SAFER barrier indeed absorbs a lot, it can only absorb that much before the unforgiving concrete behind it (with some exceptions like Iowa) takes over the absorbing.

[nickyf1]

Originally Posted by hotlavaaaa

The SAFER barrier at Iowa Speedway has no concrete wall behind it. I'm pretty sure all of the new SAFER barrier at Pocono is built the same way. How would a wall system that is designed to absorb impacts not be safer than an armco?

With oval racing, the SAFER barrier is really the only alternative to the concrete, as walls have to line the track on an oval, and its much much better at providing more impulse and absorbing the impact. The SAFER barrier is also designed to prevent cars from bouncing back into the path of very fast moving cars.

When you get to a road course, you have much more options. You can have run-off, which can be shaped so that when cars go off, they go off out of harms way. You can therefore use softer walls which absorb the impact better, as you don't need the anti-bounce SAFER barrier.

The problem with Watkins Glen is not the barriers, its the placement of the barriers. The way the walls taper in to guard the access roads will always lead to cars bouncing back into the path of the oncoming cars. The walls did their job fine, but the angle which they lie to the track caused the accident. The walls need to be straightened out.

You can't use oval track tech for road courses!