Code 60 for UK

[SWCRacing]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Maybe you should see it live with your own eyes before becoming convinced it's the far superior procedure! Not that it's perfect but it easily beats a SC 9 out of 10 times.

I have, as a competitor, on one of the best circuits in the world. It ONLY works on circuits where there are light panels. The majority of UK circuits do not have light panels.

Nor do they have timing loops every 100m to enable the timekeepers to accurately judge the speed of a competitor at ANY point on the circuit. Without this, there is absolutely NO proof of what speed a car is doing at any given point on the track. And a Marshal's opinion that a competitor is going faster that a given speed isn't of any use in determining the actual speed

And as mentioned in other posts, most cars on circuits do not have speedometers. And there isn't the time in the event's programme to lead all the competitors around behind a course car so they can see what revs equate to 60kph

If drivers (and I include an unfortunately large number of professionals in this, not just clubbies) actually understood the safety car procedures and FOLLOWED them, there would be no need for this flag anywhere... I have only ever seen one driver get the restart procedure right after a safety car when I've been driving the car....

And seeing as the FIA have revised appendix H of the ISC to include the use of Full Course Yellows, why does any race run under the FIA regulations need another flag?

My opinions, I know, but I have a race licence, an officials licence, and I drive Safety Cars...

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

I have, as a competitor, on one of the best circuits in the world. It ONLY works on circuits where there are light panels. The majority of UK circuits do not have light panels.

Nor do they have timing loops every 100m to enable the timekeepers to accurately judge the speed of a competitor at ANY point on the circuit. Without this, there is absolutely NO proof of what speed a car is doing at any given point on the track. And a Marshal's opinion that a competitor is going faster that a given speed isn't of any use in determining the actual speed

And as mentioned in other posts, most cars on circuits do not have speedometers. And there isn't the time in the event's programme to lead all the competitors around behind a course car so they can see what revs equate to 60kph

If drivers (and I include an unfortunately large number of professionals in this, not just clubbies) actually understood the safety car procedures and FOLLOWED them, there would be no need for this flag anywhere... I have only ever seen one driver get the restart procedure right after a safety car when I've been driving the car....

And seeing as the FIA have revised appendix H of the ISC to include the use of Full Course Yellows, why does any race run under the FIA regulations need another flag?

My opinions, I know, but I have a race licence, an officials licence, and I drive Safety Cars...

Yes, I have to agree with above. I really, I mean really, like the idea, but I see it as difficult to police a the moment. Though, as with all changes, if it happens, it will improve in the course of time.

I agree no time to run everything behind SC to gauge Code 60 Speed - utter waste of time. Anyhow - if you take our Rev counter - it is as bad as the speedo, both are mechanically driven, and badly worn - so speedo dis-connected, rev counter for rough gauging only. Probably get car to approx 60 by ear, but it would be plus minus 10mph.

Phone based GPS remarkably poor - signal not good sometimes, and phone GPS doesn't update fast enough in the main.

But the biggest problem here is as SWCRacing says is judgement. As a marshal you can only report the facts. Unfortunately you can never accurately say how fast a driver is going at a given point - on post I have heard wildly differing perceptions from people. Once on the exit of Gerrards at Mallory I asked the team how fast the RS Cosworths were exiting - I had estimates ranging from 50mph to 140mph!

Therefore there will never be any proof (unless going stupid for more than 1 lap) that a driver has broken the code!

Maybe I am looking for something too accurate. If we used it but simply expected drivers to slow to approx 60kph, and accepted that gaps may creep this way and that, then it is a great idea.

I still say that one SC improvement would be to close the pits though, to me this is a fundamental weakness in the SC procedure.

[The Fat Clerk]

Haven't we been down this route before 10/15 years ago?

It was called the Battenberg Flag

That worked well didn't it?

[numbersix]

It seems like a good idea but the policing of it - on circuits which don't have the technological advantages of unlimited wealth - I too think will be difficult.

I have no faith in safety cars, for the excellent reasons quoted by deadsquirrel, and personal experience of same.

I'm old enough to remember a time when safety cars were rare beasts and drivers abided by the spirit of yellow flags. And I'm grumpy enough to suggest that if draconian measures were brought in to deal severely with unspirited drivers then fear of transgression is a workable solution.

The problem is not communication, it's attitude brought on by an intensely competitive environment and financial pressure.

A few high-profile Alan Sugar-like firings would soon get the message across than yet another flag.

[bludvl_x19]

When they introduce the new flag, are they going to punish initial transgressors harshly, to set a precedent and a standard for everyone to meet? Because if they are, I have a novel idea.*

How about the MSA (or applicable ASN) actively enforces the existing yellow and double yellow flags, by doing the same harsh punishment and re-set the acceptable standard? Then you save everyone having to learn a new protocol and a new flag, and you might have a situation where marshals feel safe to go trackside without having to neutralise an entire race. Just a thought...




*I am from the colonies, feel free to ignore it.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by rotation

http://www.24hseries.com/24h-silverstone

Although that race takes place after the consultation has closed.

I really meant any opportunity where we've got flag points manned and able to time it - we could probably do it at a training day.......

[Slipstick]

I'm not really convinced that there are many race cars that don't have either a speedo (there are quite a few "road legal" series) or a reasonably accurate tacho. And even then you can simply drop to the speed of the cars around you...and if you're in one of those series where the few odd cars are so spaced out they can't even see any other cars then I'm afraid I've lost interest .

It's true that it's not easy to police the speed on every inch of the track...but I'd think that an average speed as judged on the lap times that are already known for every car would be a reasonable start. If the Code 60 doesn't last long enough to get lap times then it probably wasn't needed in the first place. Back that up with a couple of strategically placed radar guns (and don't tell the drivers where they are) and you've cracked it.

Of course, like average speed cameras on the road, it's always possible that someone will go like stink for most of the lap and then slow to a crawl for the last corner or two....but I can't imagine why anyone would bother.

Steve

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

When they introduce the new flag, are they going to punish initial transgressors harshly, to set a precedent and a standard for everyone to meet? Because if they are, I have a novel idea.*

How about the MSA (or applicable ASN) actively enforces the existing yellow and double yellow flags, by doing the same harsh punishment and re-set the acceptable standard? Then you save everyone having to learn a new protocol and a new flag, and you might have a situation where marshals feel safe to go trackside without having to neutralise an entire race. Just a thought...




*I am from the colonies, feel free to ignore it.

You've summed it up well!
I always think of the average speed sections of motorway roadworks we see lots of in UK now. I've finally got a car with (adaptive) cruise control - so I can set a speed of 50mph and just cruise in lane 1. However, car in front isn't doing 50mph on cruise, they're speed is +/-5mph and its really annoying when my ACC chips me in and I oscillate at the same speed variation as them. So, I pull into lane 2, same issue. Lane 3, maybe is clearer, and _maybe_ I'm tempted to try 52mph. The guy next to me then undualates and we swap positions, him getting more annoyed with me. Apart from showing him both my feet (to show I'm not changing speed) we're effectively snail racing with our difference in speed.

I can see that if drivers continue to drive against the 'spirit' of the flag and try the "I'll drive at 2mph more than the other cars, and over x laps, will close 1 second lets say to the car in front" we've now lost use of yellow flags, waved yellow flags, double waved flags, Safety car, and Code 60. Remind anyone of the overuse of antibiotics?

Until drivers JFDI the simple act of respect for people/vehicles trying to get their track back to a raceable condition, we're never going to succeed.

[MGDavid]

IMO it's sad that there seem to be as many comments about 'policing' 'enforcement' 'transgressors' and 'punishment' as there are about safety! Odd how the former don't seem to be perceived as a problem in those jurisdictions where the flag's been in use for a good period of time.

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

IMO it's sad that there seem to be as many comments about 'policing' 'enforcement' 'transgressors' and 'punishment' as there are about safety! Odd how the former don't seem to be perceived as a problem in those jurisdictions where the flag's been in use for a good period of time.

I think it's a given that if all cars slow down to a fixed low speed it will be pretty safe.

But that still leaves the question of how you persuade them all to ACTUALLY do it. Hence the comments. It may be safe in theory but is it practical ?

Steve

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

I think it's a given that if all cars slow down to a fixed low speed it will be pretty safe.

But that still leaves the question of how you persuade them all to ACTUALLY do it. Hence the comments. It may be safe in theory but is it practical ?

Steve

No doubt those that have used it for years know the answer, and no doubt the MSA have spoken with them.

This has all been discussed before - e.g. from 5 years ago:-
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130634

[Apple]

If they policed the yellow flag rules strictly enough, there's no need for another set of rules.
And if they dont police these new rules correctly, then what next?

[MGDavid]

surely you will agree it's far easier to police a number (60 kph) than a judgemental 'slow down considerably....'

[Apple]

Personally I will wait and see before commenting.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

IMO it's sad that there seem to be as many comments about 'policing' 'enforcement' 'transgressors' and 'punishment' as there are about safety! Odd how the former don't seem to be perceived as a problem in those jurisdictions where the flag's been in use for a good period of time.

On the other hand we have had yellow flag rules for years and years, but comments involving "policing' 'enforcement' 'transgressors' and 'punishment" still arise at regular intervals about these rules, and possibly now more frequently than ever.

So perhaps your argument is ironic (?), as it is the very flouting of the yellow flag rules that has probably brought about the increased use of SC more recently, and that, in turn, has bought about the proposed new regulation.

The very heart of this matter is that some drivers continually fail to heed yellows in the spirit that they are meant.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

surely you will agree it's far easier to police a number (60 kph) than a judgemental 'slow down considerably....'

How do you "judge" that a car is travelling at 60KPH? Human perception of speed is both subjective and relative.

When reporting we can only state facts, not guesses, estimates, or guesstimates.

However, I can see this working if we work on the principle, in a club-man's race, that everything "looks like" it has slowed to around 60kph, and we report any "stand outs" that have clearly failed to slow up. For me that would work, but it isn't perfect by any means - but it is at least the spirit of the rules - and would probably reduce the use of a race-wasting SC, particularly in shorter races.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

How do you "judge" that a car is travelling at 60KPH? ...........

You don't.
Race control / timekeepers measure it.

[The Fat Clerk]

But they can only do that over a lap, circuits like Mallory don't have Sector timing, and no where has it between Flag Points.

[Slipstick]

Since by definition flag points are in within sight of one another I don't think we really need to worry too much about people speeding up between them and then slowing down as they go past .

Steve

[Richard Duvall]

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

We all rely on radios far too much these days - a flaggie with a decent set of mark 1 eyeballs should be able to pick up the flag deployment/withdrawl without need for radio call. A radio call _MIGHT_ speed things up slightly, and help out a lone flaggy, but its not a requirement in my eyes.

I think the need for simultaneous deployment is vital. With the best will in the world cascade from start line could take 10 to 20 seconds and in this time the driver at the start line who slows to 60kph the instant the first flag is deployed could lose out significantly to the driver at the far side of the circuit who is able to keep running at racing speed for the delay period. My rudimentary calculation estimates that a car could gain an advantage of 25 metres per second! The same would apply to any non-simultaneous deployment of green at the end of a Code 60. I don't think it would be good enough for flag marshals to be dependent upon radios help by others who might be otherwise occupied.

[numbersix]

For the sake of some drivers who may be following this thread I'd like to make the point that our banging on and on about yellows actually has the best interests of drivers in mind.

For drivers who have paid large fees to take part, I assume it is highly upsetting when most of the race is spent doing the equivalent of following a blue-rinse old lady in a Morris 1000 down a country lane.

The problem is caused by the selfish actions of a minority of drivers. There is no safety issue. Not really. If I, as a Post Chief, see that the lunatic fringe is abroad, I simply tell my marshals to stay put and call for a Safety Car. Why should I send the Orange Troops out to help people who don't seem to care about us? Well, I don't. It's as simple as that. We want to get drivers racing again as fast as possible with minimum time loss. And we will do this at personal risk. But there is a line beyond which we will not go. Nor should we.

A SC must be the worst of all driver options. It destroys several race laps and the leaders loose any distance advantage they have gained. It doesn't even work; the tail-enders are still at race speed playing catch up.

The Code 60 idea (if it can be successfully used on circuits without the technology enjoyed by cash rich territories) will be less invasive, will help the leaders maintain their distance advantage and stop tail-enders gaining an unfair advantage in time, if not position. But it will still mess up everyone, and probably for more than one lap.

Obeying yellows, on the other hand, means that only one sector is affected and after the green, drivers can roar off to their hearts content to the benefit of all.

So the actions of a few drivers are messing it up for all the other drivers. Therefore I have this question: Why aren't the majority of decent drivers playing merry-hell with these people?. Unless I've missed it somewhere, I don't see drivers as a whole campaigning for change. Do, please, correct me if I'm wrong, but if some #@&se had caused me to lose half the value of my race fee - I'd have words with him. Or her.

So here we have the wrong people - marshals and officials - trying to help drivers to help themselves with new flag regs every season, knowing full well they are trying to fix the symptoms not the cause.

Drivers! - heal thyselves. It's your money you're wasting.

This isn't a rant. It's an appeal for common sense to the very people who are most effected by a self-generated problem.

[SouthportFC Fan]

How about having a couple of Judges of Fact trackside with radar guns ?

Or even solar powered signs telling the drivers they're going too fast for the speed limit...

There's plenty of them near where I live. I feel sure most road users would be more than happy to see them being 'recycled' to trackside locations ....

[Terrible-Tones]

Second "NumberSix's" post - absolutely spot on

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

You don't.
Race control / timekeepers measure it.

Or/and you have a few randomly selected (and rotating per day) stations equipped with speed guns, usually 2 or 3 - this has been done for years at Zandvoort for instance.

(no surprise as Zandvoort is the home track for the DNRT club who's driving force Huub Vermeulen is pretty much regarded as the "godfather" of Code 60. And DNRT's involvement with the Dubai 24H brought the purple flag to a much more international audience.)

No better way for 'fact finding' when it comes to sticking to the speed limit!

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Or/and you have a few randomly selected (and rotating per day) stations equipped with speed guns, usually 2 or 3 - this has been done for years at Zandvoort for instance.

(no surprise as Zandvoort is the home track for the DNRT club who's driving force Huub Vermeulen is pretty much regarded as the "godfather" of Code 60. And DNRT's involvement with the Dubai 24H brought the purple flag to a much more international audience.)

No better way for 'fact finding' when it comes to sticking to the speed limit!

exactly; thankyou.