[Tech Issue] Red Bull flexible nose

[wnut]

Originally Posted by luke g28

Personally im more interested in what they are doing and why.

From the video / gif it does look like the end of the nose is very soft potentially it has been damaged though.

Think it is worthy of a discussion rather than refuse to talk about it because it passes the tests.

If the internal structure of the nose is broken, it is just hanging together on the remaining fibers in its structure, and any flex shown there is basically just because it is barely hanging together! The internal structure has separated out from the outer skin.

[Marbot]

Can we bear in mind that the wing also has to pass the tests 'after' the race in order to be legal.

[littleman]

The optimum aero design of an F1 car under load is very likely to breach the technical regs.

The clever bit is designing the car to this optimum but engineering it to pass scruitineering.

[TrueBlueFlyer]

funny reading this discussion

I got to handle a few noses now from F1 cars, some still attached to the cars others in bits and pieces all over the track, and I can assure you none of them had a "jelly" feel to them despite what the video shows.

[littleman]

That doesn't surprise me.

If you say the average lap time is around 100 seconds, then you're only looking for an advantage of 0.1 to 0.3%.

This could be found from the sum of a number of "tiny tweaks".

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by TrueBlueFlyer

funny reading this discussion

I got to handle a few noses now from F1 cars, some still attached to the cars others in bits and pieces all over the track, and I can assure you none of them had a "jelly" feel to them despite what the video shows.

yes, as the post before yours says, 'that's the clever bit'.
Maybe part of the material is a substance that goes soft under vibration but hardens again when stationary?

[TrueBlueFlyer]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

yes, as the post before yours says, 'that's the clever bit'.
Maybe part of the material is a substance that goes soft under vibration but hardens again when stationary?

I'll check this weekend

[Peat]

I was always under the impression that some teams were heating thier front wings to create flex, but i have been assured that the more you heat the resin, the harder and more brittle it becomes. So i am discounting that now.

The SkyF1 show pretty much brushed it aside in 2 minutes as damage - but, they do get alot of access to the RBR personnel for interviews and the like, so i doubt they are out to make any trouble anyway.

The gif that bothers me is the Webber one. We have always seen super-slow-mo's of cars bouncing and juddering over chicanes. We have always seen wings/wingelts flex and bounce as you would expect. It's just how the entire end of the nose bobbles up and down merrily that makes it seem fishy.

But, as others have pointed out, this isn't a 'Officer! Ban them for being better than us!' excercise. I think it's brilliant and it's what i watch motorsport for.

[Marbot]

I've always had my suspicions that RB are using some sort of heating element in their front wings that enables the material used (maybe a bi-metallic strip?) to flex whilst the car was running, but then reform to scrutineering spec when the car was not running. Just a thought.

[Adam43]

That would be illegal. Clearly a moveable aerodynamic aid.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I've always had my suspicions that RB are using some sort of heating element in their front wings that enables the material used (maybe a bi-metallic strip?) to flex whilst the car was running, but then reform to scrutineering spec when the car was not running. Just a thought.

Nice engineering thinking Marbot!

Hadn't got there myself. Great possibility!

Illegal, but really creative, simple too!

[TrueBlueFlyer]

Apparently Jalopnik reads Ten-Tenths

http://jalopnik.com/5960423/this-cha...ium=socialflow

This year, teams can have dynamically adjustable wing surfaces and some teams are experimenting with flexible nose assemblies before they likely get banned as well.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Adam43

That would be illegal. Clearly a moveable aerodynamic aid.

Yeah. The bi-mettalic strip is a bit of a giveaway.

But what if we use different compositions of carbonfibre and just channel hot air from the brakes into preformed spaces between them? Make it nice and bendy, wouldn't it?

I think that RBR have just been very clever about the way in which they have put their wing together. No tricks, no gimmicky stuff, just damned clever use of carbonfibre.

Originally Posted by wnut

Nice engineering thinking Marbot!

Hadn't got there myself. Great possibility!

Illegal, but really creative, simple too!

The thinking behind these things has got to go along the lines of: What is the car when its being driven that it isn't when its not being driven? Hot, being one of them. What can we do with this huge amount of heat when it's being driven that cannot be proven to be of illegal use when it's not being driven? Ah! Eureka! Bendy front wing! Or whatever.

Originally Posted by TrueBlueFlyer

Apparently Jalopnik reads Ten-Tenths

http://jalopnik.com/5960423/this-cha...ium=socialflow

Very interesting.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Marbot

What is the car when its being driven that it isn't when its not being driven? Hot, being one of them. What can we do with this huge amount of heat when it's being driven that cannot be proven to be of illegal use when it's not being driven? Ah! Eureka! Bendy front wing! Or whatever.

Very interesting.

Getting the heat to the front wing could be tricky without some complicated plumbing.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Getting the heat to the front wing could be tricky without some complicated plumbing.

Couple of wires and a trace heating element! Job done!

Marbot is officially a genius! Great idea!

[bella]

or maybe he just frequents the tecchie nerd forums where all the engineers hang out

[Marbot]

Back in 2007, I had this great idea to do with putting holes in a diffuser, but no one would listen.

[Bononi]

I don't know how the F1 world lost you ! Maybe you should quit your job and try one of those teams.

[MGDavid]

as several have said, it's allabout tightening the regs / closing the loophole, however you look at it. From BBC website this morning:

" The sport's governing body, the FIA, will also introduce more stringent tests to stop front wings moving for aerodynamic benefit.

This practice has been under the spotlight in recent years as teams seek to design front wings that change their characteristics in certain parts of the tracks to either improve cornering or straight-line performance.

New tests for this year have stopped wings flexing down at either end to aid cornering performance.

But a new practice has emerged whereby wings rotate on their horizontal axis - reducing their effectiveness on the straights and therefore increasing top speed.

Currently, flexible wings are policed by a single load applied downwards in one place on each side of the wing. From next year, the load will be applied in two places - one further back from the current test point and one further forwards. "

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

From next year, the load will be applied in two places - one further back from the current test point and one further forwards. "

Makes you wonder why they didn't do that from day one.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Makes you wonder why they didn't do that from day one.

I think it's called hindsight?

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I think it's called hindsight?

....which is 20/20 vision.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I think it's called hindsight?

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

....which is 20/20 vision.

Whichever one it is, the guys coming up with these tests are supposed to be engineers. They should know that things flex in more than one just one direction.

[chillibowl]

but surely whatever the test is someone would still find a way to be clever...and on and on it goes.

discussing this with some friends who only casually follow, they are of the impression that the testing requirements are being changed so they can stop RB from cheating next year...imo from what i have read it just seems like they are doing better at living within the current rules and the change is more a clarification but they naturally respond with 'why do they need to change the test rules then?'

i struggle to respond to that question without sounding the apologist.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but surely whatever the test is someone would still find a way to be clever...and on and on it goes.

Without doubt. The alternative is to hand out FIA mandated spec front wings. But even then, there'll always be someone who can get that little bit extra from it.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

discussing this with some friends who only casually follow, they are of the impression that the testing requirements are being changed so they can stop RB from cheating next year...

They haven't been cheating this year, AFAIK.