Renault returning to Le Mans?

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Simmi

It makes you wonder how long the ACO has known about this.

If I knew Signatech were hooking up with Alpine Renault for an engine deal I'd definitely have given them two entries for Le Mans instead of one.

Indeed, it may have been a question of deadlines and when the deal was green lighted. Perhaps there was uncertainty of 2014 vs. 2013 for the LMP2 project?

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Not at all. And yes, I don't know for sure what the budgets for each are, but I can use critical thinking and see that VWAG/Audi/Porsche, and Toyota have their footprint in many, many different motorsports, compared to Nissan/Renault, which if it wasn't for F1 and Super GT, wouldn't have any top-line motorsport programs. And even though they have been massively successful in F1, For as long as I can remember, they've operated well below any of the other manufacturers budgets(bar Cosworth). It's a case of putting two and two together.

I truly believe that more than one manufacturer saw Toyota's accomplishments vs. Audi last year and realized that beating Audi on a sensible budget was not an insurmountable task. The economies of scale realized with the tie in to the F1 engine ensure a megabucks program will not necessarily be required IMO. Add in the marketability of the hybrid angle and the ROI is surely looking attractive as proven by the surprising level of interest we appear to be witnessing. Not too many other racing platforms globally have much relevance to the road anymore nor do the they have the green angle, making Le Mans racing a great avenue. Atherton was early to the party but is being proven to have been right on this.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

What is so ridiculous in wishing a major manufacturer would race against others instead of hiding for 2 years in an exhibition class? Look at Toyota...

Not sure I'd call it "hiding", the Delta Wing at least in North America got more press coverage on major networks than ANY of Audi's Le Mans victories, which got nothing. Even when I lived in Germany from 2006-2008 during the height of Audi's domination I never saw a single mention. Then the DW comes along and it's on NBC, CBS and ABC.

This is for a much smaller budget than P1 with the Delta Wing's main claim to "innovation" being a concept that was perfected in motorsports in the 1960s and by Japanese road cars in the 1980s, all while racing against nobody. Seems like Garage 56 is not exactly hiding. And who knows, if Le Mans is boring this year the Hydrogen car may be the biggest story coming out of Le Mans in 2013, for good or for bad...

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

I truly believe that more than one manufacturer saw Toyota's accomplishments vs. Audi last year and realized that beating Audi on a sensible budget was not an insurmountable task. The economies of scale realized with the tie in to the F1 engine ensure a megabucks program will not necessarily be required IMO. Add in the marketability of the hybrid angle and the ROI is surely looking attractive as proven by the surprising level of interest we appear to be witnessing. Not too many other racing platforms globally have much relevance to the road anymore nor do the they have the green angle, making Le Mans racing a great avenue. Atherton was early to the party but is being proven to have been right on this.

And this is probably why Ghosn has greenlit the Renault operation. My problem was with the idea that Nissan was going to be able to do it with a clean sheet and bespoke engine. I could always see Renault doing that as they are at the top of the food chain, but there was no value in it for Renault to hand their F1 power units over to Nissan for a chance at Le Mans. I thought that if the opportunity was there, then it would make more sense if Renault wanted that for themselves. Renault has the resources and the know how to do it most efficiently. Nissan doesn't. They're just Mazda on a larger scale. And that's from a Nissan fanboy.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Not sure I'd call it "hiding", the Delta Wing at least in North America got more press coverage on major networks than ANY of Audi's Le Mans victories, which got nothing. Even when I lived in Germany from 2006-2008 during the height of Audi's domination I never saw a single mention. Then the DW comes along and it's on NBC, CBS and ABC.

This is for a much smaller budget than P1 with the Delta Wing's main claim to "innovation" being a concept that was perfected in motorsports in the 1960s and by Japanese road cars in the 1980s, all while racing against nobody. Seems like Garage 56 is not exactly hiding. And who knows, if Le Mans is boring this year the Hydrogen car may be the biggest story coming out of Le Mans in 2013, for good or for bad...

I think no one is disputing the marketing value of G56 or the need for technology to be at the fore. I was merely saying it is frustrating as a fan of racing to be so close to having another factory in the premiere class. Why not prove up technology WHILE RACING? Having seen Toyota do it last year with a small budget AND a hybrid while being on the pace makes the prospect of more factories entering very enticing. Personally I hate it when cars run unclassified in a race as the potential of them having a positive impact on the race result is zero, especially at Le Mans where with the limited pit space that could be used for a classified entry.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

I think no one is disputing the marketing value of G56 or the need for technology to be at the fore. I was merely saying it is frustrating as a fan of racing to be so close to having another factory in the premiere class. Why not prove up technology WHILE RACING? Having seen Toyota do it last year with a small budget AND a hybrid while being on the pace makes the prospect of more factories entering very enticing. Personally I hate it when cars run unclassified in a race as the potential of them having a positive impact on the race result is zero, especially at Le Mans where with the limited pit space that could be used for a classified entry.

I hate it as well, but other than a small niche group of sports car media, Toyota had almost ZERO press coverage.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

And this is probably why Ghosn has greenlit the Renault operation. My problem was with the idea that Nissan was going to be able to do it with a clean sheet and bespoke engine. I could always see Renault doing that as they are at the top of the food chain, but there was no value in it for Renault to hand their F1 power units over to Nissan for a chance at Le Mans. I thought that if the opportunity was there, then it would make more sense if Renault wanted that for themselves. Renault has the resources and the know how to do it most efficiently. Nissan doesn't. They're just Mazda on a larger scale. And that's from a Nissan fanboy.

Let's please leave Mazda out of this.

I do think Nissan is being smart using proven chassis technology (I believe Dome) and focusing on the propulsion technology but I don't think something as revolutionary as they are implying will be cheap. That is part of the reason why I feel they could race P1 in 2014. No one wants to see another AMR One where they bite off more than they can chew. And that's from an Aston fanboy. I agree there is no point having the Renault F1 engine re-badged for two different projects but I do think there is value in the two brands racing in P1 as their marketing objectives are different.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

I hate it as well, but other than a small niche group of sports car media, Toyota had almost ZERO press coverage.

So is G56 legitimately pulling in new manufacturers, and if so shall it be deemed as a necessary evil as Graham Goodwin implies? Or... is it being exploited by those not willing to make the necessary investment to properly play with the big boys? This goes in circles for me.

[GTfour]

In my honest opinion, the fact that Renault might come back to Le Mans should be seen completely apart from Nissan's possible P1 effort.
Reading the ongoing discussion above, one should not forget Renault and Nissan indeed do have two very different marketing area's.
Renault would be fighting for the french honour, ofcourse and to boost sales across Europe while Nissan would be fighting for the Japanese honour, counting in the fact that they'll want to represent their country just as much as Toyota does. There's genuine rivalry between these Japanese giants.
Don't forget that, for the last few times one saw Nissan at Le Mans, Toyota was allways there to give them chase and vice versa. Never underestimate the popularity of Le Mans in Japan and their carmanufacturers to take up arms against each other...

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Not sure I'd call it "hiding", the Delta Wing at least in North America got more press coverage on major networks than ANY of Audi's Le Mans victories, which got nothing.

This just goes to prove, IMO, that innovation and relevance to the real world are central themes in both the advancement and attraction to endurance sportscar racing.

I got banned from an American forum because of my insistence that 'relevance' was a core theme and attraction. Glad to see that your observations of press coverage supports my assertions.

After saying that, I think Audi's innovations are top notch and leaders in both relevance and advanced technology. While I like seeing the DW get attention for innovations, I also would like seeing Audi and Toyota get the same attention and accolades.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

This just goes to prove, IMO, that innovation and relevance to the real world are central themes in both the advancement and attraction to endurance sportscar racing.

I got banned from an American forum because of my insistence that 'relevance' was a core theme and attraction. Glad to see that your observations of press coverage supports my assertions.

Is it the one where ten-tenths rejects go?

[Acid09]

Wow, this is incredible news.

So for 2014 we could be looking at:

Audi
Porsche
Toyota
Renault
Nissan (G56)

incredible... and there's apparently another manufacturer to come? Wow...

How sweet would it be if Peugeot was still with us though, Peugeot vs. Renault at Le Mans, that would have been an epic clash.

Great news keep on coming, I hope everyone who doubted LMP1 or the WEC feels a tiny bit silly now...the championship is shaping up to be very, very strong!

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

This just goes to prove, IMO, that innovation and relevance to the real world are central themes in both the advancement and attraction to endurance sportscar racing.

I got banned from an American forum because of my insistence that 'relevance' was a core theme and attraction. Glad to see that your observations of press coverage supports my assertions.

After saying that, I think Audi's innovations are top notch and leaders in both relevance and advanced technology. While I like seeing the DW get attention for innovations, I also would like seeing Audi and Toyota get the same attention and accolades.

I guess you should read the rest of my post in terms of how "innovative" the Delta Wing actually is, but I see your point somewhat.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Wow, this is incredible news.

So for 2014 we could be looking at:

Audi
Porsche
Toyota
Renault
Nissan (G56)

incredible... and there's apparently another manufacturer to come? Wow...

How sweet would it be if Peugeot was still with us though, Peugeot vs. Renault at Le Mans, that would have been an epic clash.

Great news keep on coming, I hope everyone who doubted LMP1 or the WEC feels a tiny bit silly now...the championship is shaping up to be very, very strong!

If Renault's, sorry Alpine's return () to endurance racing in the LMP1 class is confirmed, this would indeed be fantastic news. I am not overly excited by Alpine's rebadging effort in 2013, but the prospects of having a new constructor joining the ranks in 2014 (or more likely in 2015) is highly positive for endurance racing.

If Renault can successfully demonstrate that they can transfer their new V6 1.6L turbocharged engine architecture developped for F1 in a hopefully competitive (Alpine-Caterham ?) P1 chassis, this should help to convince further F1 engine manufacturers to follow suit.

Some development might be necessary on the engine side to ensure that it can last for 24h, but I trust that Renault can make it happen.

[deggis]

From the OP link:

It is thought that a manufacturer was behind the unification of F1 and LMP1 powertrain regulations

Indeed, Renault (curiously as "RENAULT F1 TEAM") was already present in the very first manufacturer meeting in July 2010.

=> http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjuly10.html (go to date 7.19.10)

but at the Monaco Grand Prix last year Renaultsport denied any interest in Le Mans (but later requested a copy of the LMP1 regulations!)

I think Sam is referring to this: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin...2/5/13384.html

Q: (Sam Collins - Racecar Engineer) Question for Jean-Francois, can you update us on the progress of your new engine, and also with the ACO changing the Le Mans prototype regulations to allow complete Formula One powertrains from 2014, is that a new area you can use for testing, with the testing ban in Formula One?
J-FC: I think today for the new engine, for ’14 we are now on schedule. We need to respect also the budget from Renault. We will be on time. Is it very high technology so it is quite tough development. We have big help from Renault, I think more than 45 people coming from Renault to help us on the electrics side, the electronics and turbo side. I think we will be ready, in the same philosophy that we have for the future, around November or December next year, so we are not asking for testing before.

Q: (Sam Collins - Racecar Engineer) And for Le Mans? The ACO has announced they are going to accept a full Formula One powertrain, including gearbox, engine, everything from 2014 onwards for Le Mans prototypes - so is that another market you could move into and is it something you are looking to do?
J-FC: I don’t think so.

Sometimes worth saving these links

[TF110]

We'll see what happens. I thought Alpine was going to GTE with that A110 homage car.

[Simmi]

Let's say hypothetically Renault do decide to build a P1. How set up are they to do this and how do people envision that could work? Signatech could form a core of the people running the car alongside Renault but that doesnt explain how a chassis or 4 get built.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Nissan doesn't. They're just Mazda on a larger scale. And that's from a Nissan fanboy.

Nissan (4 million vehicles) is small compared to Toyota (8 million vechiles), but suddenly it is only a bit larger than Mazda (1 million vehicles)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_ma...oups_by_volume

I'm really not buying this "small manufacturer, no resources" reason. Toyota might have had a huge F1-grade facility, but Audi doesn't have and neither did Peugeot.

[deggis]

The original RCE story doesn't make any references to years other than the new regs coming in 2014. LMP2 for 2013 and right away LMP1 in 2014 sounds like a bit too speedy development to me. For once I'm being pessimistic...

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by deggis

Nissan (4 million vehicles) is small compared to Toyota (8 million vechiles), but suddenly it is only a bit larger than Mazda (1 million vehicles)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto_ma...oups_by_volume

I'm really not buying this "small manufacturer, no resources" reason. Toyota might have had a huge F1-grade facility, but Audi doesn't have and neither did Peugeot.

I meant that they operate like Mazda, but with more money.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Let's say hypothetically Renault do decide to build a P1. How set up are they to do this and how do people envision that could work? Signatech could form a core of the people running the car alongside Renault but that doesnt explain how a chassis or 4 get built.

I believe that Caterham would be more than happy to build one or more P1 chassis for the Renault-Alpine engine, especially since they are directly involved in the revival of the Alpine brand.

Now, unless Caterham extend their racing activities, Renault-Alpine will definitely need to find a suitable partner to run the car. Signatech could be one.

[Fogelhund]

I suppose the worst case scenario here is that we are about to embark on one of those Golden Age periods, that we'll look back as a fantastic period of Sportscars... such as the circa 98'-99' period. It might fall apart after a few years, but it will be fantastic while it lasts, so enjoy it...make plans to see these races in person while they are in the glory period. Personally, I'm thinking Le Mans 2015 is looking like a must.

[deggis]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...totype-return/

Multiple sources, including a report in the Le Mans newspaper "Le Maine Libre", indicate that an announcement is imminent by Renault [...]

The Automobile Club de l'Ouest has scheduled a press conference at Circuit de la Sarthe for Friday, with club President Pierre Fillon set to make an "important announcement."

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I suppose the worst case scenario here is that we are about to embark on one of those Golden Age periods, that we'll look back as a fantastic period of Sportscars... such as the circa 98'-99' period. It might fall apart after a few years, but it will be fantastic while it lasts, so enjoy it...make plans to see these races in person while they are in the glory period. Personally, I'm thinking Le Mans 2015 is looking like a must.

My thoughts exactly. Even if it crumbles we'll be left with something not a million miles away from where we've been for the past few years anyway. Bring it on I say.

[deggis]

Local Le Maine Libre newspaper: http://www.lemainelibre.fr/actualite...-03-2013-53983

Google translated: seems to only speculate about P1.