Chevron B16

[Bryan Miller]

Driftwood,

I am looking for the auction sales catalogue at the moment, and will post that photo if I can.

I know of Gropa's , however this had B21/23 bodywork , and the stickers were on the bodywork , not the car .

I think I found the advert. for the car in a 1979 Autosport , and at that time it was described as a roller by Lodge corner , when the now deceased owner and his wife purchased it , the car was supposedly just saved from being built up as a Skoda based Superloon.

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

Drifty, Steve McQueen acquired three B16s via Siffert, one of which raced at Le Mans and was said by Autosport to be DBE26. Grant's latter implies that they were 20, 27 and 28 but Autosport also gives 19 as the number of Tondelli's car so production records aren't completely bearing out so far.

Another point to remember in all this is that Chevron needed 25 cars built to homologate the B16 into Group 5. I'm sure every single frame would have been used to get to 25 as soon as possible and some corners may have been cut along the way. It's quite possible that less than 23 complete cars were built, not more. I have only spotted 11 racing in 1970 so far.

Allen

[driftwood]

Tondelli was italy chevron agent so his car would be "correct" ?
where where the 11 B16 running in 1970 in EEC events ?
amybe u can list cars drivers or events?

have u found usa and ZA races with cars?

i dont think any cars went to OZ NZ or Japan so they have to be Uk EEc and usa events that the cars where used in

BM i was wondering i fthe body and chassis raced at BOAC 1000 race hence car entry list to revue

[mshalett]

DBE07 is in Louisiana. What is source of DBE07 with Peter Grant? My car was purchased in England and has been here in the US for many years.

Monte Shalett, New Orleans, Louisiana, USA

[henk4]

To revive this thread following a discussion about the number of "fake" B16s now participating in the CER-series (Classic Endurance) there are some interesting obsercations to make.

Running now are
DBE6 (C. Quiniou, the black one)
DBE14 (Stephane Gutzwiller, the co-writer of the last year issued autobiography of Roger Nathan. I have not seen the engine, but it definitely does not sound rotarian)
DBE26 (Quiniou, the red one)
DBE35 (J. Nicolet , blue )
DBE36 (John Sheldon, red)

Furthermore DBE19 (yellow) is owned and run by Jose Albuquerqe

At the recent Monterey Historics DBE23 and DBE28 (both red) were raced.

The B16Spyder is owned by Roy Walzer, and was raced last year at the Monterey Historics.

All cars above were identified via their chassis plate....(an easily reproducable item)

It was questioned whether all five CER cars are original, basically also because of the share of BMW engines used. Judging from the post above, an original B16 looks like a holy grail, but in my humble opinion one of the most beautiful (if not the most) racing cars ever produced deserves as much visibility as it can get.

Does anybody know which car was used by Kent Abrahamson in the sixties?

[phdm]

Originally Posted by henk4

DBE14 (Stephane Gutzwiller, the co-writer of the last year issued autobiography of Roger Nathan. I have not seen the engine, but it definitely does not sound rotarian)

The engine is a BMW M10.


Car 14, the Yves Deprez/Julien Vernaeve car, spent its entire life in Belgium and was sold a few years ago in original unrestored condition.
This is not the car being raced in CER.

As said before:

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

The original Mazda car exists in a private collection and when found still had the period tyres fitted.

[phdm]

Originally Posted by henk4

DBE26 (Quiniou, the red one)

On the one hand:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

The following list appeared in HSCC Newsletter Jan 1985 p7 accompanying a letter from Peter Grant that was complaining about replica B16s even then. The first list, he said, "can be confirmed by Paul Owen, Graham Gould and Roger Anderson [sic]". He meant Andreason.

Chevron B16 Manufactured 1969-1971

26 Not manufactured

On the other hand:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I've rescued this snippet from another thread:

Who's right ? Who's wrong ?

[phdm]

Originally Posted by henk4

DBE36 (John Sheldon, red)

Originally Posted by allenbrown

The following list appeared in HSCC Newsletter Jan 1985 p7 accompanying a letter from Peter Grant that was complaining about replica B16s even then. The first list, he said, "can be confirmed by Paul Owen, Graham Gould and Roger Anderson [sic]". He meant Andreason.

Chevron B16 Manufactured 1969-1971

36 J. Siffert (Burnt out Goodwood 1983)

See also:

RM AUCTIONS - Monterey - August 2004 - Lot 156

http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails...r156&Currency=

http://www.carcollector.com/MarketJo...ay081304MJ.pdf

Same car ?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by phdm

See also:

RM AUCTIONS - Monterey - August 2004 - Lot 156

http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails...r156&Currency=

http://www.carcollector.com/MarketJo...ay081304MJ.pdf

Same car ?

Thanks, this is much more concrete than making vague statements to remove the "fake" B16s

I did see a car with #36 during the 2005 Monterey Historics, when Chevron was one of the featured marques. I did not ask Sheldon if that was his car, although when I recently asked him about the number of his car, he immediately returned with the question whether I knew of another #36.

As far as #26 is concerned, it is stated in this thread that the Chevron manufacturing records were not the best which of course is a convenient aspect for those who want to introduce cars under numbers that were "officially" not used. You may also know that the first cars did not carry numbers at all, but were retroactively numbered to get the B8 homologated as a GT. I have no idea whether the no-numbering practice was carried over to the B16 as well, but I assume not. The ones not built are of course all the cars with the "11" factor and the #13, but for the rest, why should Chevron have skipped a large amount of non contentious numbers?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by phdm

The engine is a BMW M10.


Car 14, the Yves Deprez/Julien Vernaeve car, spent its entire life in Belgium and was sold a few years ago in original unrestored condition.
This is not the car being raced in CER.

As said before:

If it is going to be at Silverstone next weekend I'll have a look at the car and ask Gutzwiller about it. (I did buy a copy of his book....signed by Roger himself )

[henk4]

Originally Posted by henk4

I did see a car with #36 during the 2005 Monterey Historics, when Chevron was one of the featured marques. I did not ask Sheldon if that was his car, although when I recently asked him about the number of his car, he immediately returned with the question whether I knew of another #36.

here is a picture of the #36 (according to the official Monterey Historics Programme 2005). I did not verify the chassis number at the time. The wheels are obviously not the same as those on the RM car, and also the paint job has been altered slightly, but that is cosmetics.

http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?i...619691sod5.jpg

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

This thread is for the very brave indeed. The following list appeared in HSCC Newsletter Jan 1985 p7 accompanying a letter from Peter Grant that was complaining about replica B16s even then. The first list, he said, "can be confirmed by Paul Owen, Graham Gould and Roger Anderson [sic]". He meant Andreason.

Chevron B16 Manufactured 1969-1971

01 Works Car
02 Works Car
03 D. Mortland
04 Robins
05 Baker USA (written off 1970)
06 J. Burton
07 Red Rose Racing - J. Bridges
08 I. Skailes
09 Koepchen Tuning (BMW Questor Car)
10 Works Car (Written off in Germany 1970)
11 Not manufactured
12 Skelen (Crashed in Germany; still about)
13 Not manufactured
14 Yves Deprez (Belgium fitted Mazda engine)
15 Cowdley
16 T.A.P.
17 Baker USA
18 Not manufactured
19 Not manufactured
20 J. Siffert Switzerland
21 Baker USA
22 Not manufactured
23 Not manufactured
24 Not manufactured
25 Not manufactured
26 Not manufactured
27 J. Siffert Switzerland
28 J. Siffert Switzerland
29 Dobby
30 Not manufactured
31 Not manufactured
32 Not manufactured
33 Not manufactured
34 Sevart 1971
35 R. Hevans
36 J. Siffert (Burnt out Goodwood 1983)

From 1969 - 1970, 20 B16 were built
1971 3 B16 were built
A total of 23 cars

Present history of B16 cars and owners
01 Phoenix Arizona USA
04 Richard Budge
06 Tony Griffiths
07 Peter Grant
08 Andrew Fletcher - rebuilt after bad crash
09 Ex Simon Phillips - driven by B. Bell (Sold to Sweden 1984)
12 Claus Petz Beckhauser (in bits in Germany)
20 Brian Taylor

So, how much can we add to this?

Allen

NB correction to first owner of 03, it should read D. Martland (the D standing for Digby).

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

NB correction to first owner of 03, it should read D. Martland (the D standing for Digby).

#9 then would probably be the Dieter Quester car (not Questor).

and the burnt out #36 has obviously re-phoenixed twice

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

This thread is for the very brave indeed. The following list appeared in HSCC Newsletter Jan 1985 p7 accompanying a letter from Peter Grant that was complaining about replica B16s even then. The first list, he said, "can be confirmed by Paul Owen, Graham Gould and Roger Anderson [sic]". He meant Andreason.

Chevron B16 Manufactured 1969-1971

01 Works Car
02 Works Car
03 D. Mortland
04 Robins
05 Baker USA (written off 1970)
06 J. Burton
07 Red Rose Racing - J. Bridges
08 I. Skailes
09 Koepchen Tuning (BMW Questor Car)
10 Works Car (Written off in Germany 1970)
11 Not manufactured
12 Skelen (Crashed in Germany; still about)
13 Not manufactured
14 Yves Deprez (Belgium fitted Mazda engine)
15 Cowdley
16 T.A.P.
17 Baker USA
18 Not manufactured
19 Not manufactured
20 J. Siffert Switzerland
21 Baker USA
22 Not manufactured
23 Not manufactured
24 Not manufactured
25 Not manufactured
26 Not manufactured
27 J. Siffert Switzerland
28 J. Siffert Switzerland
29 Dobby
30 Not manufactured
31 Not manufactured
32 Not manufactured
33 Not manufactured
34 Sevart 1971
35 R. Hevans
36 J. Siffert (Burnt out Goodwood 1983)

From 1969 - 1970, 20 B16 were built
1971 3 B16 were built
A total of 23 cars

Present history of B16 cars and owners
01 Phoenix Arizona USA
04 Richard Budge
06 Tony Griffiths
07 Peter Grant
08 Andrew Fletcher - rebuilt after bad crash
09 Ex Simon Phillips - driven by B. Bell (Sold to Sweden 1984)
12 Claus Petz Beckhauser (in bits in Germany)
20 Brian Taylor

So, how much can we add to this?

Allen

Also No 36 the first owner would be Roger Heavens as in "heavens above!"

[driftwood]

How do you know Roger Heavens had chassis 36 as well as no 35
some B16 where converted to B21 cars in 1973
i had 1 such car im not telling you which car as i jnow its likely to get fake dir is already out there then i can say its a fake

in essence 23 cars built and all 43 exist today!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by driftwood

How do you know Roger Heavens had chassis 36 as well as no 35

I think in this case we are looking at a typo....meant is certainly #35 as the "Heavenly" car

[driftwood]

OK point taken just checking he didnt have 2 cars!!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by henk4

I think in this case we are looking at a typo....meant is certainly #35 as the "Heavenly" car

Correct! I should really check what I typpe!

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Correct! I should really check what I typpe!

typpical reaction

[alfa23]

Originally Posted by henk4

here is a picture of the #36 (according to the official Monterey Historics Programme 2005). I did not verify the chassis number at the time. The wheels are obviously not the same as those on the RM car, and also the paint job has been altered slightly, but that is cosmetics.

http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?i...619691sod5.jpg

I ran across these posts the other day and thought I would add a few additional facts to the discussion. The #36 B16 referenced by henk4 and phdm as having raced at the Monterey Historics in 2005 is the RM car from the August 2004 auction. The car was owned by David Kopf from the late 80's until he passed on in 2004 and has lots of documented US history over that period. Kopf owned the B16 and a B19 over that period both of which raced at the 2005 Monterey event. The B19 was sold privately and the B16 at the RM Monterey auction after Kopf's death in 2004. The #36 B16 has raced Monterey in 2006 and 2007 as well.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by alfa23

The #36 B16 has raced Monterey in 2006 and 2007 as well.

Welcome to the discussion...
Do you mean during the Historics? This year there were two (red) B16s and afaik none was #36 (one was #28 according to the plate and the other #23, according to the programme)...I have been there both weekend of the historics and have seen no other B16s.

http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nsb162suv9.jpg

this picture is from the "pre-historics"

On top of that the history of this particular #36 only starts in the eighties, presumably after the fire in the ex-Siffert car at Goodwood.

[driftwood]

who was the owner of the car when it was on fire

i recall Robert Horne having an historic sports car burn to the ground at a goodwood test day

[alfa23]

Originally Posted by henk4

Welcome to the discussion...
Do you mean during the Historics? This year there were two (red) B16s and afaik none was #36 (one was #28 according to the plate and the other #23, according to the programme)...I have been there both weekend of the historics and have seen no other B16s.

http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nsb162suv9.jpg

this picture is from the "pre-historics"

On top of that the history of this particular #36 only starts in the eighties, presumably after the fire in the ex-Siffert car at Goodwood.

I'm trying this response again. Typed it once but don't think it got sent, still getting used to this system. Yes the Historics, I was there as well and saw all three cars and they all were red. There are three B16's listed in the program, two with pictures and one without. They were car 118 chassis#28,car 23 chassis #23 and car 123 Chassis #36, the ex Kopf car. The Chassis # for car 123 is not shown in this year's program but it is the same car and driver that raced the Historics in 2005&2006 and the chassis #36 is shown in both of those programs. The General Racing Site shows the three B16's in the race results for Group 7A with car 118-4th,car 123-7th and car 23- 8th. Only two B16's raced the pre Historics ,chassis #28 as car 118 and chassis#36 as car 23 (a bit confusing) chassis #23 did not race the pre historics.

Chassis #36 also raced at the Lime Rock Vintage Festival run by General Racing two weeks after the Historics. The program for that event does show the chassis #. Chassis #36 ran that event in 2005&2006 as well and the programs show the chassis #. According to the General Racing site the car finished 4th and 6th in the two Group 8 races at Lime Rock this year.

The simple point of the post is to inform that there has been a B16 chassis #36 racing in the US for about 20 years not to point out it's previous history.

[alfa23]

Originally Posted by henk4

Welcome to the discussion...
Do you mean during the Historics? This year there were two (red) B16s and afaik none was #36 (one was #28 according to the plate and the other #23, according to the programme)...I have been there both weekend of the historics and have seen no other B16s.

http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?i...nsb162suv9.jpg

this picture is from the "pre-historics"

On top of that the history of this particular #36 only starts in the eighties, presumably after the fire in the ex-Siffert car at Goodwood.

BTW, the picture noted in your post from the pre Historics showing two B16's is of Chassis #36-which carried the number 23 for the pre Hist and chassis #28. At the Historics Chassis #36 carried 123 as its number. The B16 that carried 23 in the Historics had black numbers in a white circle. Chassis #36 has had white numbers no circle.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by alfa23

I'm trying this response again. Typed it once but don't think it got sent, still getting used to this system. Yes the Historics, I was there as well and saw all three cars and they all were red. There are three B16's listed in the program, two with pictures and one without. They were car 118 chassis#28,car 23 chassis #23 and car 123 Chassis #36, the ex Kopf car. The Chassis # for car 123 is not shown in this year's program but it is the same car and driver that raced the Historics in 2005&2006 and the chassis #36 is shown in both of those programs. The General Racing Site shows the three B16's in the race results for Group 7A with car 118-4th,car 123-7th and car 23- 8th. Only two B16's raced the pre Historics ,chassis #28 as car 118 and chassis#36 as car 23 (a bit confusing) chassis #23 did not race the pre historics.

Chassis #36 also raced at the Lime Rock Vintage Festival run by General Racing two weeks after the Historics. The program for that event does show the chassis #. Chassis #36 ran that event in 2005&2006 as well and the programs show the chassis #. According to the General Racing site the car finished 4th and 6th in the two Group 8 races at Lime Rock this year.

The simple point of the post is to inform that there has been a B16 chassis #36 racing in the US for about 20 years not to point out it's previous history.

thanks again, and really I am not trying to argue that there was no #36 running, but I am trying to explore the fact that there are obviously two cars running with the same number. I must also admit that I would have sworn only to have seen two red cars, but if they keep fiddling around with the racing numbers, one can get easily confused, and if this whole thread is about confusing things, this was certainly another contribution to that. I did see #36 in 2005, but only in the paddock. (Was at Pebble during Sunday). I can't remember having seen it in 2006. Do you remember what number it used then?

anyway, we ("in Europe") have the #36 participating in the Classic Endurance Racing series, and this car's history is also known since the early eigthies.

here is the plate

http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plate1sgv6.jpg

as I said earlier, we probably are looking at two phenixes, emerging from the ashes of the ex-Siffert car....