FF1600 conversions

[darcym]

Formulafordster and JR Ewing,

I have very similar views to yours of these cars are a different "class" to the RF90's and SC9X's etc however, myself being quite inexprienced I was missing 1 vital factor which was pointed out to my at a race this weekend. FF1600 NEEDS new cars coming in... if it doesn't get new cars coming in then it will become a "classic" series. Which as JR said it is not. I understand that the price of a lot of the zetec parts are coming down due to the national championship using them for 1 race then throwing them out....in a few years I suggest the market will be flooded with parts unless VD do something VERY different. This does put a slightly different slant on things, especially if the serires is to stay alive.

I would also like to know where Kartingdad shops as to pick up a swift for 2.5K and a zetec chassis for 5K seems a real bargin. I could use a shop like that for parts.

[GTRMagic]

In Australia, we are still running the Kent engined cars, and the latest truly competitive chassis we have here is a Van Diemen RF01... this model was built by VD with a special update kit especially for the old Kent engine, and have won the national series here last year, the year before and likely will this year as well.

The rich kids, and those with talent seem to have a mindset here that the latest cars are guaranteed to be faster... having said that, there is a racing team in Western Australia called Fastlane, who have taken a VD RF94, and put a wide track front end on it, and the car is substantially more stable, and faster to boot....

I guess it depends who is preparing the car, and the talent of the nut behind the wheel... just like any motorsport

[kartingdad]

I shop at Swift. Check out their price list - new chassis, painted, £2850.

If people start trying to make it an 'economy' class, are we going to limit tyre to say 3 sets per season or something equally as daft.

In general, the faster you want to go, the more money it costs. If you want to run at or near the front, the class is so competitive that you almost always have to go that extra mile, spend those extra pounds, take that extra time in the workshop to get there.

I suppose a good driver helps as well, but if he hasn't got the equipment, he's fighting a losing battle.

[Séamas M.]

Originally posted by kartingdad
.......
In general, the faster you want to go, the more money it costs. If you want to run at or near the front, the class is so competitive that you almost always have to go that extra mile, spend those extra pounds, take that extra time in the workshop to get there.

And you'll never be able to stop this. The best you can hope for is a class where the rules make the return for extra cash very small, so the talented racer on a low budget still has some chance of success.

[JR Ewing]

Darcy M
We're talking bare chassis costs, not cars or rollers here.
The Oz spec '01s etc. are different and run narrow pods which are not allowed in Europe. Initially, I think, Jadlam ran them but were forced to change to the wider pods last summer...

[JR Ewing]

Originally posted by darcym
Formulafordster and JR Ewing,

I have very similar views to yours of these cars are a different "class" to the RF90's and

I don't think I do have that view. I don't believe the newer cars are quicker really...

[kartingdad]

The only way to tell is by one driver with a purely objective stance doing a proper back to back test with some decent mileage, not just a hop in and I'll give it ten laps.

[formulafordster]

I think that FF1600 has only ghot a future as a classic series.

Answer me this:

What is thpiont in Zetecs and Kent using the same chassis?

[JR Ewing]

But the chassis are the same, just as the pre-2001 (pre-monococque) F Renault cars and older FF2000s were the same too... It's just a bit of framework with someone in it. It's the rest that makes up the difference, bodywork, suspension, wings etc..

[formulafordster]

There is no point in running Zetec and kent championships together surely? If the front running cars are the same model!? They will look more or less identical! Kent has a place in motorsport, but as a classic series surely? If the front running cars are going to be the same, except for the engine, then people will choose Zetecs, and kents will die die out. We already have a series for these cars. There are many Kents availiable, we don't need these 'sportsmen' in their new cars.

Wills IS quicker than last year, and his car is de-valuing oldercars, which, in 2 years will not be able to compete with these cars, which are in the same class.

[darcym]

I have to admit, after speaking with a few more experiened FF1600 racers at the weekend, I am changing my tune to the fact that the zetec class chassis should be welcome in FF1600, what about if I was to make my own chassis designed for a 1600 engine and abiding by the regulations ? (this is the argument that got me) would I be allowed and right to enter.....yes, so why not allow the Zetecs in the are the next progression of a Formula Ford chasis, they use the same engines as the kents, the same wheels and treaded tyres, in short the abide by the rules so let them run. As time goes on the price will come down (I am told it is doing already) and Rf90's and the like will be less and less common and for example the RF01 could be the "Car of choice" or perhaps even a Mygale chassis ?? If they abide by the rules....let 'em race. JR thinks they are not faster, and a couple of weekends ago, parsons and mills beat a few of these cars, it is doable. For all the arguing this is the only real response..... at one point a Swift 92 would have cost the same as an RF02 and been leading edge ??

[formulafordster]

Its a good point, What narks me is that it makes a mockery of those who try hard in there 90-92 cars.

More to the piont its never slow people who get these cars to get them nearer the front, its the people who should have moved on a long time ago. Mallory Park is a small pond, and Gavin Wills is a big fish, an RF02 is a bigger tail fin!

JR, y does he have to change his uprights etc?

[flatbroke]

You cannot moan that people are spending lots of money on new cars if you had the choice to buy a b reg merc or a brand new one what would you choose? New rf02 are good for the championships, if u took them away u would have even less cars out there. I think you should be able to run what ever new or old every body has the same options its not like theres only 3 rf02 for sale . all you need is the money

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by formulafordster
Having rich people come in and dominate this way is madness. Gavin Wills spent 20k on his conversion, which was a brand new 02 car from VD.

ah ha ha ha ha haaa ha

Gavin rich? 20k?? dont beleive all you hear in the paddock. Hes never had that much money - he bought two F1 Simteks for less than half that. Sorry just dont beleive that story.

Where is Swift nowadays btw? still with Coopers?

[formulafordster]

I got it from a pretty good source, I wouldn't expect him to lie about that, Havoline have put up a bit of money for him this season. Still with coopers as far as I know. Gavin may not be bernie, but he is rich by FF standards. His RF02 was NEW from the factory. Theres a fair chunk of your 20K

[kartingdad]

Why can't zetecs and 1600 use the same chassis? its only like any 1600/2000cc classes currently racing anyway.
If 2 classes/more cars use the same bits, then surely costs can decrease for both classes.

As far as I can see from the majority of posts on this thread, people seem to be afraid of the unknown or are looking after their patch or investment only, rather than looking to the long term viability of a particular class. I suppose the same arguments were being bandied about 10 or 15 years ago each time there was a major change in chassis design. As in life, look forwards, not backwards!(Unless your'e going sideways).

[JNWRF01]

I think you'll find Gavin's car is a 2000 zetec chassis converted - I shared a garage with them at the start of the season and his mechanic talked mt throught the conversion process. Also, have a look at the back of the chassis - I think you'll find its the same as the 99-01 series and not an 02-03 series.

Also, costs of conversion (are not cheap) but not the levels some are talking of. I know of several 2000 cars you can buy for around £5k and then it is somewhere between £3-4k to convert them (depending on how good you are at wiring etc) - You then need to add a engine. As good 92 V-Ds are going for something like £8k complete - this is not massively more expensive....and you have a fantastic resale value as people all over the world (eg NZ/Aus/US/Canada etc) all want the latest spec V-Ds in kent form. Without sounding harsh, I think people should just accept the new cars will refresh the whole kent scene (who knows if they are quicker or not) due to the fact that new-sh cars are now availible.

for the record, I am prob going to convert my 2001 zetec over to the kent at the end of the season..

[JR Ewing]

Good points JNW.
I don't think it will cost that much to convert, certainly not an RF00 where you can use the Zetec brakes and uprights. Gav's car is most certainly an RF00 but perhaps it was an old chassis that he bought new and cheap from VD in 2002?
Strange how people just don't want Zetecs and the situation is only likley to remain the same when the current Zetec engione is phased out next year. Zetec cars will have nowhere to race hardly and FF1600 conversions should be had in their hundreds.
Perhaps this can help with a King of Kents National Series which I'm sure is what the likes Wills, Cottrell, Adlam, Moore would like to do anyway...
It's also surprising that nobody at Oulton, an FF1600 hotbed, has committed to such a car...
Finally, recent rumours suggest that the BRSCC are considering doing something about these cars and I think time will tell and maybe the BARC could be thinking of an FF1600 series too?

[ghinzani]

IIRC Gav's RF88/9 and Swift SC92 were acquired at favourable rates from the respective factories for the express purposes of him winning Combe championships and highlighting the cars to potential customers, which he did. I also recall an offer from VD around the end of 91 to get a VD for 92 for Combe but he decided not to, and then they repeated the offer a year later but got topped by Robin Webb at Swift, hence the ex-works (Mcauley??) Swift 92 that won the Combe championship in 93 and Kent festival in 94.

Dont forget Gavin beat people like Mcnish and Higgins in his 1st year of junior FF - he was a potential international level racer at that time.

[formulafordster]

If he IS so good, y doesn't he just move on? or will he be out of his depth elsewhere?

[ghinzani]

ten years ago maybe - dough-ray-me I'm afraid!

[JNWRF01]

why the hell should anyone move on from FF1600?? The racing is stil the nuts..I raced FF1600 90-92 and we always had to race against the older guys who were good enough but hadn't had the breaks to make it further up the ladder - its part and parcel of the game. Do you think Ayrton Senna was bleating on about the age and experience of Rick Morris, Jim Walsh etc etc....

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by JNWRF01
why the hell should anyone move on from FF1600?? The racing is stil the nuts..I raced FF1600 90-92 and we always had to race against the older guys who were good enough but hadn't had the breaks to make it further up the ladder - its part and parcel of the game. Do you think Ayrton Senna was bleating on about the age and experience of Rick Morris, Jim Walsh etc etc....

I hear ya there! Bob taught a generation at Combe, and similarily someone musta taught him (the visigoths? team genghis khan?)

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by ghinzani
I hear ya there! Bob taught a generation at Combe, and similarily someone musta taught him (the visigoths? team genghis khan?)

altho not all the lessons will have been good....

[formulafordster]

The reason why these people don;t move on is thay are afraid they can't cut it elseware. Do they do home to ther wives and say, yep won another one in the class I have been racing for 15 years in my car which is over ten years younger than everyone, with my 3 mechanics by my side?