How good is the Zandvoort circuit!!??

[Taxi645]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/e....WA7V6T&nrt=54

First meter of gravel has a resin added, so less gravel poured onto the track but still very little grip. Will be interesting how it will work in practise.

On the DRS through the banked corner. I indeed wished they first looked at how it worked with the new cars.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/e....WA7V6T&nrt=54

First meter of gravel has a resin added, so less gravel poured onto the track but still very little grip. Will be interesting how it will work in practise.

On the DRS through the banked corner. I indeed wished they first looked at how it worked with the new cars.

Quotes from the article

Zandvoort’s Formula 1 track has fitted an experimental ‘fake’ gravel trap solution for this weekend’s Dutch Grand Prix to help reduce the risk of red flag stoppages.

Eager to avoid having asphalt run-offs, race organisers have created a special one-metre wide area that runs behind the kerb at Turn 12 where the gravel has been encased in a resin type material. This makes it look like gravel but it in fact totally solid.

I think it is an interesting idea, but has this been tried elsewhere first? The use of the word "experiment" seems a bit frightening. The articles makes it sound like this is the first time it has been tried? If so, that seems a bit... crazy to go from concept straight to trying it in an F1 race!



Can anyone point to it's use elsewhere or the testing that was done to ensure it doesn't become a mess??

Looking at the photos, it has a nice boarder between the resin gravel and loose gravel. It somewhat looks like maybe they groomed the gravel then sprayed the resin after the fact.

My concerns...

1. The article says "totally solid". How deep did the resin permeate? What if it just a crusty layer on top of more loose gravel?
2. Depending upon how much traffic it experiences, I can totally see it breaking into big chunks and landing out on the track. Nothing like large rocks getting kicked up into drivers heads. Red flag anyone?
3. Is there a hard lip between the resin gravel and loose gravel. Hopefully nobody is that aggressive and gets into the boundary between those two, but I can see it catching the edge of tires. A new sausage curb type of issue?

It just comes across a bit like a science experiment. High risk and maybe low reward.

Richard

[Taxi645]

Valid points. One would expect them to have tested it, but you never know.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Valid points. One would expect them to have tested it, but you never know.

I don't see where they would have got a 2022 spec car to test with?

[broadrun96]

Well given F1 ain't the first thing on track I don't think they'll be testing it with the F1 cars first. And sounds like a better solution than the red flags previously and oh yeah, there was already debris being kicked. Changing the material slightly won't change the outcome and could limit the crying about dirt on the track because the best drivers on the planet can't figure out where the wheel is

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Well given F1 ain't the first thing on track I don't think they'll be testing it with the F1 cars first.

So the first time we will know how the surface copes with the forces applied by a 2022 F1 car is during a live F1 session?

I hope I'm wrong, but binding gravel into larger chunks of debris sounds like a recipe for disaster....

[chillibowl]

the amount of downforce F1 cars generates has been known to literally pull up loose concrete...how could this fair any better is a legit concern.

obviously will wait and see unfortunately, but a potential red flag to clean it up once is preferable to their potentially being more red flags anytime someone (intentionally) goes off track there and drags gravel/sand back on track?

not that any red flag is a good thing so really playing devils advocate here, but a smooth but bumpy low grip surface for an area more prove to drivers intentionally running wide rather then a spot for major offs (thats an assumption i am making of course) could prove an elegant solution to the track limit issue?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

obviously will wait and see unfortunately, but a potential red flag to clean it up once is preferable to their potentially being more red flags anytime someone (intentionally) goes off track there and drags gravel/sand back on track?

I'd agree - less red flags is better than more. But - is one large chunk of debris preferable to lots of tiny ones?

(I think we might be into the horse-sized duck territory here)

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

(I think we might be into the horse-sized duck territory here)

lol thank you for that image! im now thinking about the various animals drivers have hit over the years!

[FIRE]

It's a gravel trap, not the race line.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

the amount of downforce F1 cars generates has been known to literally pull up loose concrete...how could this fair any better is a legit concern.

Because it’s not loose, and it’s not even on the track.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by FIRE

It's a gravel trap, not the race line.

I can't remember the details of the track, but isn't the point of the "solid" resin gravel that it is being used in a location where cars were previosly putting a wheel off outside the white line and dragging gravel back onto the pavement?

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Because it’s not loose, and it’s not even on the track.

We don't know if the forces of an F1 car will cause it to come loose.
The gravel (that was also a problem) was being brought onto the track.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by FIRE

It's a gravel trap, not the race line.

Many circuit guides reference the use of the kerbs on the inside as being the optimal line.

It might not be the 'ideal' racing line, but it is close enough that cars regularly put a wheel in the gravel.

[S griffin]

I think it’s a nice compromise what they have with the gravel. Have something to prevent gravel being put on the circuit, whilst retaining the challenge, where you will be punished if you get it wrong

[broadrun96]

I would prefer we end it all and just drop off the edge of the curb, you drop a wheel and your race should be over. Tired of the best drivers in the world and then can't stay on the damn track. The lap time penalty is no where near enough, time needs to be spent in the garage after so there's no running. It's getting to be a joke and not it's not the officials interfering, it's drivers cheating flat out

[S griffin]

Drivers are not cheating, they are trying to push the limits and try to get the best lap possible and occasionally they will go over the limit. The problem is they don’t seem to lose time by going off anymore….

[Casper]

I was always under the impression that the black stuff was the race track and not the coloured stuff which was always there to keep the edges of the black stuff from falling apart. That concept does not seem to penetrate F1 minds for some reason and surely is not a fuzzy concept at all but the best drivers in the world don't seem to be able to grasp it and the FIA aren't man enough to write the rule.

[S griffin]

F1 drivers use kerbs to get the best lap time. They will push the limits as they say. It’s not the drivers fault they take advantage of the runoffs. It’s too easy to get away with it. It’s time to bring back runoffs that act as a deterrent

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

F1 drivers use kerbs to get the best lap time. They will push the limits as they say. It’s not the drivers fault they take advantage of the runoffs. It’s too easy to get away with it. It’s time to bring back runoffs that act as a deterrent

No. Of course it's their fault, they're the ones with a steering wheel in their hands.... aided and abetted by the fact that all too often they're allowed to get away with it. If the run-offs and the area beyond the kerbs actually slowed you down, they wouldn't use them. Jeez, they have massive DRS zones to enable them to overtake with little or no effort, so driving all over the kerbs and beyond really should have been clamped down on years ago.

[Greem]

Us orange lot (not the Dutch or the papaya people, the other orange lot!) have a rather trite but nice and clear phrase on this:

The black bit is yours. Anything else is ours and we reserve the right to call you out for using it.

It's been that way for many many years. Drivers now aren't really any different to any other era, excepting the era where you could be decapitated by running wide - and they still did it then!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Greem

Us orange lot (not the Dutch or the papaya people, the other orange lot!) have a rather trite but nice and clear phrase on this:

The black bit is yours. Anything else is ours and we reserve the right to call you out for using it.

It's been that way for many many years. Drivers now aren't really any different to any other era, excepting the era where you could be decapitated by running wide - and they still did it then!

That’s long been marshal myth though.

As long as one wheel is on ‘the black bit’ the car is classed as being on the legal track.

[Greem]

It used to be used frequently by a very senior clerk of the course in the UK. I dare say quite a lot of F1 drivers heard it in driver briefings on their way up the ladder.

Still - the gravel panics didn't happen, did they?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Greem

It used to be used frequently by a very senior clerk of the course in the UK. I dare say quite a lot of F1 drivers heard it in driver briefings on their way up the ladder.

Still - the gravel panics didn't happen, did they?

True! I heard it from him myself on numerous occasions. That didn’t make it any more accurate then than it is now though, not that I risked telling him LOL.

[Taxi645]

Well refreshingly little fuss about track limits. No tarmac does work.

On another note, the increased camber towards the outside of turn 3 (Hugenholz) seems a bit too strong. Last year the ideal line was not clear yet. This year everyone just ran as high as possible for maximum (exit) speed. Everyone who tried to go low couldn't hold enough speed. If they were to reduce the amount of camber progression more lines would become viable again. This would make it an overtaking opportunity again and also a more interesting corner in my book. It was the right idea with the progressive camber but just taken a little bit too far I feel.