Want to race in NZ 2009?

[Al Weyman]

I think they probably would be worth more back home in the UK especially with the current price of the £ to $. The Jag and Merc don't sound too dear if in good nick. As for Aussie Falcons and Monaros you just dont see them overhere. I was hoping to renovat this old IROC racer I have (not the late model in my avatar a genuine 1977 one of only 15 raced) and ship it back to the US to make some money but I think I may catch a cold now the the £ getting on for $2.10!

Back to the race, its a heck of a long way to cart a big lump of iron would it not be better to try to arrange a recipricating drive at both ends. I mean I admire the guys (and gals) who have made the effort to go out to Daytona with their mounts but as pressure rises against the frivulous use of the earths resourses maybe its not such a brilliant idea if motorsport is to be seen to at least try to have some green credentials. Anyhow apart from that if I went there I doubt I would come back :-)

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

but as pressure rises against the frivulous use of the earths resourses maybe its not such a brilliant idea if motorsport is to be seen to at least try to have some green credentials

Woah woah woah Let's not go all mung bean here, Al.

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Anyhow apart from that if I went there I doubt I would come back :-)

I didn't

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Back to the race, its a heck of a long way to cart a big lump of iron would it not be better to try to arrange a recipricating drive at both ends.

That is something I thought about but discounted. It's very difficult to match drivers to cars when they are 12,000 mikes away, not to mention insurance issue etc. I'm gonna stick with bringing cars over. It's a proven exercise in racing and is reasonably easy to do.

[Tim the Grey]

I went over for the honeymoon in 2004...
I've regretted coming back ever since!

[johnny yuma]

No offence Al but its your car we want to see not you !!! There are some hot competitors in your category on both sides of the Tasman,your presence would be noticed!However Australian Historic Sedan rules are more stringent than some British categories.
Plant a Giant Redwood and sleep the sleep of the just ! It'll gobble CO2 for 1000 years.Of course it'll all leak out again when the tree rots away....or burns in the coming apocalypse...yadda yadda

[Alan Morgan]

Speaking from zero personal experience, but having seen the success of the South African races (held - you should be aware - at a similar time of year to your proposed races) - the package on offer there is shipping, import duties, loading and unloading costs, internal transport for the race cars, six passes (including hospitalityand post race barbecues) at a cost of about £3500 (about NZD9500).

I would have thought that many of the potential competitors were frequent travellers, and were very used to arranging their own flights at favourable rates. Also, some might want to combine the racing with a business trip, so the logistics would probably be a nightmare if you tried to organise things on their behalf! Let them make their own travel arrangements.

Also, on the accomodation front, there are likely to be very differing requirements. If a basic package could be negotiated with a local motel chain (and included in the price), then that would probably appeal to the "Once a Lifetime" members of the party. The more well-heeled racers will probably be more than capable of finding accomodation to suit their tastes.

I may have missed it above, but what sort of cars are you thinking of? 2008 will be a big year for Formula Junior racers, so they may be a little short of funds in 2009. If it's GTs or Saloons, then I'm pretty sure a 90 minute, 2 driver format would be what most people want.

Anyway, just a few random thoughts. I'll spread the word amongst the historic racers I know - It's the least I can do after we Brits provided sutch dodgy weather for the intrepid NZ/AUS F5000 racers a couple of years ago!

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

Speaking from zero personal experience, but having seen the success of the South African races (held - you should be aware - at a similar time of year to your proposed races) - the package on offer there is shipping, import duties, loading and unloading costs, internal transport for the race cars, six passes (including hospitalityand post race barbecues) at a cost of about £3500 (about NZD9500).

I would have thought that many of the potential competitors were frequent travellers, and were very used to arranging their own flights at favourable rates. Also, some might want to combine the racing with a business trip, so the logistics would probably be a nightmare if you tried to organise things on their behalf! Let them make their own travel arrangements.

Also, on the accomodation front, there are likely to be very differing requirements. If a basic package could be negotiated with a local motel chain (and included in the price), then that would probably appeal to the "Once a Lifetime" members of the party. The more well-heeled racers will probably be more than capable of finding accomodation to suit their tastes.

I may have missed it above, but what sort of cars are you thinking of? 2008 will be a big year for Formula Junior racers, so they may be a little short of funds in 2009. If it's GTs or Saloons, then I'm pretty sure a 90 minute, 2 driver format would be what most people want.

Anyway, just a few random thoughts. I'll spread the word amongst the historic racers I know - It's the least I can do after we Brits provided sutch dodgy weather for the intrepid NZ/AUS F5000 racers a couple of years ago!

Now that is what I want to hear. Thanks, Alan. Keep the suggestions coming.

[Slippy Diff]

Latest update. I've had an e-mail from the CEO of Hampton Downs and it looks like the track is on schedule to open in January 2009, not sure if early or late in the month yet. I've already booked some dates for other events and will try and find out what others are planned for 2009 and see if something could be tagged on.

If anyone has any questions get asking, I need feedback!!

[socram]

What you haven't told them is that there are 80 trackside apartment/motel units currently being built... First units ready April 2008, but the track isn't due to be operational until either late 2008/early 2009. We have already booked a one day (Sunday) classic saloons/sports/GT race meeting or test day, mid January 2009, on the intermediate circuit, but there are no guarantees that it will go ahead.

I would imagine that the Historic Racing Club will be hoping for their normal end January meeting, probably on the long circuit to kick things off, but there is a restriction on spectator numbers for the first few events.

[NAC]

Hi Boys and Girls

I stopped at Hampton Downs the other day to try and take a couple of pics but it's really difficult to get any decent shots so I thought I should just get a a mate of mine to take some aerial shots next time he's up. Well what do you know he did.







It's really starting to take shape now, can't wait till it's up and running

All credit to the mate. Thanks Wayne

[horizon]

FYI........ there are 6-7 ? can-am cars coming from Cailf. and 3 porsche 356's coming from the seattle area for The 2008 southeren fesitval of speed in the south island. 1st race in Christchurch Feb.1

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by socram

What you haven't told them is that there are 80 trackside apartment/motel units currently being built... First units ready April 2008, but the track isn't due to be operational until either late 2008/early 2009. We have already booked a one day (Sunday) classic saloons/sports/GT race meeting or test day, mid January 2009, on the intermediate circuit, but there are no guarantees that it will go ahead.

I would imagine that the Historic Racing Club will be hoping for their normal end January meeting, probably on the long circuit to kick things off, but there is a restriction on spectator numbers for the first few events.

The trackside apartments will be agreat addition but as most, if not all, will be privately owned, I'm not sure what sort of availability they will have. My guess is it will be limited for the large events as the owners will be using them.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Slippy Diff

The trackside apartments will be agreat addition but as most, if not all, will be privately owned, I'm not sure what sort of availability they will have. My guess is it will be limited for the large events as the owners will be using them.

Most local classic racers with apartments will just use a couple of apartments to congregate in at a big meeting, leaving the remainder for rental and will divi up the proceeds - cos they need the cash to subsidise their racing - or pay the mortgage!

All units are two bedroomed and all have a track view, and all will sleep a minimum of 4; most will sleep six.

Many overseas and local drivers are now doing the end January meeting, followed a week later by Taupo, then down for the South Island festival of speed. Any overseas drivers particularly, considering shipping to NZ, would have an absolute ball. If you can get a grid of over 20 Schedule K cars, then most regular organisers would squeeze in the grid, but meetings are now attracting over 250 cars easily. This year, with the extra FJs, 300 is possible. There are also many classes for local (T & C) classic rules, that are a bit more pragmatic than Schedule K.

Just so that UK drivers have a cost comparision, entry fees for a two day meeting in NZ with a guaranteed 3 or maybe even four races, would be about 70 quid. It makes the whole exercise well worth considering. Unlike the UK, races here are run continuously rather than to a fixed start time, so over 20 6 or 8 lap races a day is considered normal. Hopefully, Hampton Downs will also be able to start before the 10:15am restriction applied at Pukekohe for the horse training...

The coffee is good too... GST/VAT is 12.5% and in the main centres, there are some superb places to eat.

Who wants to be in the UK for the February chills anyway?

[socram]

I was a bit out with my estimates. Over 340 cars at the Pukekohe and Taupo meetings. Now as I understand it, we can invite overseas drivers to run here without the need for an international race permit (and all that that involves), so apparently, oversea's drivers just need a clearance from their own organisation to race.

There is now a massive split developing between those promoting clubs who are insisting on the local "Certificate of Description" and the majority of regular drivers and their series coordinators, who can't see the point!

Slippy Dif will be pleased to know therefore, that at least two local clubs will now be chronically short of entries, and will welcome a massive influx of overseas cars - but presumably, they too will need a NZ CoD...

[Slippy Diff]

I was at Taupo on Sunday for the Tasman Revival. If I was to bring over 30 European owner/drivers for a two or three race series and gave them two or three six lap races at Taupo, there would be no shortage of disgruntled drivers. There would have to be a minimum of a one hour race and a shorter twenty lap race.

An overseas driver needs no clearance from their home organisation whatsoever to race abroad. As long as you have an international licence, you're good to go. You may also be able to use a non-international licence if the local governing body will accept it.

Last weekend has put me off a bit. Never mind the fact that your average UK racer could never get their head around the staggered start debacle that seems to be the in thing.

[socram]

Unfortunately, the reality is that all the race groups at Taupo (12 of them) only got a couple of six lap races per day, as that was an economic issue. Without all the locals paying their full entry fees to subsidise the internationals, it just wouldn't happen. The income from all those race groups assisted in the shipping and promotion costs and sorry, you can't have it both ways. If you want longer races for classics, it will cost them a heap more and quite frankly, locals can't afford it. Maybe if you can raise a pile of sponsorship it would work?

Most UK events cost about 5 times as much to enter - for a club race, and with current track hire and associated costs per day in the thousands, it is simple economics. (A $5,000 bill at Taupo for timekeeping would you believe...) If drivers want a one hour race, and a twenty lap race in the one day, then they are going to have to pay for it. The fixed costs have to be shared according to track time so you would be looking at a maximum of 120 entries at a guess. Straightaway, that is three times ther figure for the last two and puts a race entry fee at around $700 per car. With a 10% drop out rate beforehand too, I think you'd struggle.

Both Pukekohe and Taupo have limited daily track time. Taupo has a curfew at 5:30pm, Pukekohe you can rarely start before 10:00am, though you can run later.

If you want any help with the numbers and the full costs of running a meeting, please get in touch, but I am assuming you already know them.

Grid limit is 40 cars at Pukekohe - provided all marshal posts are covered, otherwise it is 34.

We normally run a maximum of 6 or 7 race groups in a one day meeting and unless grids have an average of 25 cars, the meeting is probably a financial flop. You cannot guarantee any gate income - ever.

As for staggered grids as you put it, the success of these is because it allows us to run a 1951 Jaguar Mk7, bog standard MGBs, a Mini and a modified Ford Escort at the same time, without the perrennial frustration of bonnet lifting, accusations of cheating, disparate cars etc and puts the emphasis on enjoying our classic motorsport.

The fact that the two series I run have now been running for 12 years, and continue to grow each season, is proof enough that the formula works.

No one cares a stuff who wins as ALL series races are handicaps and the guys have a fantastic camaraderie. Over-drive, and they are banished.

No doubt you have read Tony Dron's recent comments re the current UK scene. Accusations of cheating and over-driving are the last things we want here.

Scratch racing has just about always meant the fattest wallet is the winner. If that is what you are proposing, by all means go ahead and organise a race meeting for internationals and we wish you every success! We may even come and watch...

The international drivers at Taupo loved both race meetings, the race structure and the laid back kiwi style of race organisation, which I would have to say is much slicker than any UK meeting I have attended (my first attended UK meeting was Gamston, 1951...). Pukekohe's meeting had 39 races, Taupo had 36 - and finished on time.

[giffo]

Socram are you sure your not here in West Aust? It all sounds very familiar and very much correct.
A 1hr race? Not likely. I need a rest after about 10 laps anyhow. I would bet that most people who are not regular racers that their lap times would drop off some what after about 10 laps anyway.

[socram]

Not too far away from you giffo - just across a bit of land and a bit of water...

I'm knackered after 8 laps, and have never tried more than that in one go.

With over 30 degrees in the sun at the last two weekends, they'd all need coolsuits...

Maybe being over 60 has something to do with it, plus having a car without power steering or a brake servo, and a cast iron straight six up front. Tired in spite of being a rep badminton player.

A one hour race plus a twenty lapper? I don't think so. What do potential drivers think? We haven't yet heard from any potential starters, so maybe it was just a good idea that didn't get off the ground.

[giffo]

Both our guys who were in NZ for the last 2 w/es racing are both of the 8 laps are enough types. More races/events yes. More laps no not really.

[rogerwills]

I'm a kiwi so would love to race in my home country, especially on circuits where I spectated as a kid. However, I see little point of going to the expense and effort of taking cars half way across the world for 8 laps. So I am certainly of the 45mins-90mins race variety if we are preparing a wish-list.

Roger

[socram]

What would you be prepared to pay as an entry fee? How many race meetings would you expect to do during a visit, as equally, travelling across the world for one weekend is hardly worth it either? Three weekends and three race meetings on three different circuits?

Its a tough one but its a financial numbers game. Costs of all meetings have to be covered by entry fees, and with a 10% drop out rate (minimum), getting enough for a decent grid or grids has to be the starting point before any promotion could possiby get off the ground. Taking one 90 minute race is about 15% of the track time for one grid - and that is without practice, so assume 20-25% of all the meeting costs would have to be covered by that one race group, regardless of the size of that grid.

The Historic racing Club had to squeeze in 12 race groups over both weekends to cover the costs of assisting international F5000 and FJ grids. Economic necessity" they called it, so all races were either 8 laps (Pukekohe) or 6 laps (Taupo) other than the 12 lap F5000 features.

If Slippy Diff is going to promote it and put all the hard yards in, then he'd be mad not to want a return on his investment. Bad weather leading to abandoned meetings and a few small grids cost one major club a loss of $20,000 (7,000GPB) last year...

Later races in any series would have reduced numbers, as the attrition rate would be rising.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by socram

Unfortunately, the reality is that all the race groups at Taupo (12 of them) only got a couple of six lap races per day, as that was an economic issue. Without all the locals paying their full entry fees to subsidise the internationals, it just wouldn't happen. The income from all those race groups assisted in the shipping and promotion costs and sorry, you can't have it both ways. If you want longer races for classics, it will cost them a heap more and quite frankly, locals can't afford it. Maybe if you can raise a pile of sponsorship it would work?

Are you saying that the locals paid 100% of the entry fee and the visitors paid less? If so, why? I'm guessing that you have a good idea of what it costs to ship a car from the UK, fly over and spend two weeks in hotels etc. An extra $100 or $150 on an entry fee is nothing. Personally I would venture that the reason nobody came from the UK was the prospect of two six lap races. Tell them they will get a one hour race and a twenty lapper at each circuit and it may be a different scenario. More internationals come over, less locals needed.

Originally Posted by socram

Most UK events cost about 5 times as much to enter

Approximately 160 pounds for ten or twelve laps plus practice/qualifying. Around $375 at todays exchange rate.

Originally Posted by socram

If drivers want a one hour race, and a twenty lap race in the one day, then they are going to have to pay for it. The fixed costs have to be shared according to track time so you would be looking at a maximum of 120 entries at a guess. Straightaway, that is three times ther figure for the last two and puts a race entry fee at around $700 per car. With a 10% drop out rate beforehand too, I think you'd struggle.

120 entries at $700 is $84,000. That is a lot of cash. Even 100 entries brings in $70,000. Personally, I think it is easily economically feasible. If I was to tell the UK drivers that for $500 they would get a one hour race plus a twenty lapper at each round, they wouldn't flinch; ntry fees are such a small part of a racer's budget for the year.

Originally Posted by socram

As for staggered grids as you put it, the success of these is because it allows us to run a 1951 Jaguar Mk7, bog standard MGBs, a Mini and a modified Ford Escort at the same time, without the perrennial frustration of bonnet lifting, accusations of cheating, disparate cars etc and puts the emphasis on enjoying our classic motorsport

Run classes based on power to weight.

Originally Posted by socram

No doubt you have read Tony Dron's recent comments re the current UK scene. Accusations of cheating and over-driving are the last things we want here

Aaah, yes, but Tony is a stirrer. Sells copies of the mag. There will always be over-driving (done it myself and crashed) and accusations of cheating will always surface but a good governing body and race organiser will stamp on it.

Originally Posted by socram

Scratch racing has just about always meant the fattest wallet is the winner

It still does with a staggered grid. A certain TVR could have started the races in Turangi and still won. So could two well set up three series beemers.

Originally Posted by socram

The international drivers at Taupo loved both race meetings, the race structure and the laid back kiwi style of race organisation, which I would have to say is much slicker than any UK meeting I have attended (my first attended UK meeting was Gamston, 1951...)

But I'm not planning on running a meeting to the UK's format. The race format at Taupo may well have looked slick, but I watched three guys running up the start grid, desperately trying to get cars into their correct postions (and failing) before the lights went red, on more than one occasion, with the last four or five drivers just starting from where they felt like! These three fellas then just managed to get clear before the lights went red...

I don't want to change the way you run races. I want to run a meeting the way I feel they should be run.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by giffo

I would bet that most people who are not regular racers that their lap times would drop off some what after about 10 laps anyway

I tell you what, visit the Spa 6 Hours thread and ask for copies of the lap times for some of the drivers. I have mine somewhere from the last time I raced there and over a 90 minute period my lap times deviate by around two seconds per lap. In 2000 (I think) it was very hot, temps in my car were nearly 50deg and lap times still didn't change dramatically.

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

I'm a kiwi so would love to race in my home country, especially on circuits where I spectated as a kid. However, I see little point of going to the expense and effort of taking cars half way across the world for 8 laps. So I am certainly of the 45mins-90mins race variety if we are preparing a wish-list.

Roger

First reply from a driver. What meetings have you competed at in Europe, Roger?

[Slippy Diff]

Originally Posted by socram

The Historic racing Club had to squeeze in 12 race groups over both weekends to cover the costs of assisting international F5000 and FJ grids. Economic necessity" they called it, so all races were either 8 laps (Pukekohe) or 6 laps (Taupo) other than the 12 lap F5000 features.

Why 'assist' them? I'm guessing it's a case of having to "if you want us to come over for two six lap races then we need financial help or we don't come".

[socram]

I know that the F5000's - even the locals often don't pay an entry fee!!! We know exactly what races they want and they are more than happy with a couple of six lappers and a 12 or 15 lap feature race. They have told us so.

The Historic racing club (aka F5000/libre) can elect to set the charges at whatever they want. Its the organiser's/promoters who call all the shots, carry the financial risk and set the fees - and they happen to have a foot in both camps as F5000 supporters, promoters and soon to be track owners.

NZ amateur club drivers are now grizzling at $190NZ for the weekend. Auckland Car Club/NSCC charged $195 for a one dayer. Mention $700 to any local classic competitor and they'd run a mile... Formula Fords pay about $475 a meeting (they are a running in a sanctioned series and that costs more any way) and I don't think they get too much track time for that - certainly not a 90 minute race.

However, there are locals who enter the annual Puekkohe six hour race in a classic (bless em...), so some drivers certainly will support a longer race format. You need to sort out what class(es) you'd run, as I am more than happy to circulate the details to the 400 drivers on my email list when you ahv something more concrete.

You are being a little unfair on the overseas drivers. Its a big committment to travel 12,000 miles - and take a month or two off work. Not many can afford the time let alone the cost. The juniors proved that it was possible, as the majority of the field were from overseas and they had a grid of 38 cars compared to the usual NZ field of six Juniors. Several drivers will run locally owned cars and return the favour when the local travels overseas.

I really hope you can pull something together Slippy Diff and look forward to your progress updates. Meanwhile, dates at Hampton Downs are already being booked and the proramme for 2009 is already taking shape.


As for handicaps/staggered starts, there are different philosophies, as to how they should be run. the TVR (fastest TVR in the World...) will only hit the front if the handicap system allows it or promotes it.

My own handicap system is a bit more sophisticated than merely multiplying the difference in lap times and multiplying by the number of laps, and is designed to allow a certain amount of tweaking, eliminate sandbagging and to hopefully get a different winner each time. What that does is tell the drivers that if they elect to modify their cars, that is fine, but it won't guarantee either race or series wins. Its worked well for 12 years and we have never yet had a driver win the top honours more than once, and that is the way it should be. All our points races are handicaps.

In scratch races, you'll always have the cheats and the win at all costs merchants and it is over-driving that we don't want to see in classics or historics. I issued a written warning to one of our newer drivers last week for over-driving. If it happens again, he's out for good... I thinks he's gotg the message as he does not want to be eliminated.


As for the shambolic starts at Taupo, don't blame the handicappers or the series regulars, look at race control, they are the ones who decide when to activate the start lights!