2023 World Rallycross

[geordiecriag101]

So Saturday at Lydden Hill was a strange one with the main RX1e having been canned due to the cause of the fire fire not being fully explained, it was left to the RX2e, British Rx Supercars and Retro Rx to keep the show going and that they did.

My first time seeing any full EV races and while they are fast and with sum good battles, the RX2e cars just don't do it for me. The British lads were their normal entertaining selfs with the British weather doing what it does best as well, Rain Rain n more bloody Rain for second half of the day!

The Retros were brilliant, despite it only being demo runs, there was a lot of hard driving and special mention to Liam Doran in Rosie, watching him hustle and attack 110% was great to see. Anyway, heres my track side vid for anyone who interested:

https://youtu.be/BiI44juzwfM

[flatlandsman]

I actually though the little E cars were fine, they are damn quick and the racing was fairly close in tough conditions

They do make a weird sound when shutting down, like an old American police siren!

Main class canned though, battery was the reasons, and they dont know why

Have to say Lydden did a ridiculous amount of work trying to prevent people taking pictures, spent nearly all day erecting canvas shields, bit OTT if you ask me, it's not hard to see it!

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by geordiecriag101

Anyway, heres my track side vid for anyone who interested:

https://youtu.be/BiI44juzwfM

Great stuff as ever, especially given there was no other coverage from the circuit on Saturday.

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I actually though the little E cars were fine, they are damn quick and the racing was fairly close in tough conditions

I actually - whisper it - quite enjoyed RX2E. Cars were quick, were absolutely flying off the jump and (most importantly I'd say) the racing was decent...

...but, that said, the sight and sound of Supercars is still my personal highlight. The Polo was putting a smile on my face every time it let out a massive crack!

Not the weekend I (or I think anyone) had been anticipating - and I was hugely disappointed not to see the Deltas and JK in action - but it still turned out pretty well. Felt like a 5 Nations round with some extra polish on it, but that was no bad thing. Some great racing (and "demos"), with no huge voids in the timetable. Saturday felt a little more disjointed to me, but Sunday seemed to flow really well.

Real shame neither Thorne or Munnich made it into the final. Thorne especially deserved a good result as he was the only driver consistently sticking with Patrick.

Have to wonder what the bigger picture is for World Rallycross. I don't want to sound overly negative (because those sort of posts really wind me up!), but I can't see how Mettet can happen. The drivers/teams/FiA obviously (and understandably) want to know what caused the fire and how to prevent it. But unless it is something obvious, I can't see any engineering investigation (and potential fix) being completed in two weeks.

[chasing cars]

I believe Mettet is lucky in that it gets european RX1 as well, so if the electric cars can't run and as tbtts says an investigation could take a while, they would still have a good international entry.

As far as world rallycross is concerned I think even before this issue decisions needed to be made. The entry isn't good enough and I'm not aware of many or even any more teams showing an interest. Also any thoughts that RX would be a great showcase for electric car manufacturers is actually way off the mark.
The first step is maybe to return it to a European series only, therefore cutting costs.Going to other parts of the world,where interest is generally low, also seems to totally contradict the whole RX1e 'green' agenda. Secondly, make it more accessible to the public, putting it behind a pay wall is just pure madness and is preventing any chance of the sport gaining a new following and is probably keeping potential sponsors away.

Anyway well done to Lydden for making the best out of a very tricky situation and hopefully it will retain its place on the calendar, and perhaps as compensation get an RX1 euro round too.

[BertMk2]

The RX1e cars won't run at Mettet as the investigation into the Lydden fire is still ongoing. Some of the RX1e drivers will join the RX2e field so that entry is a bit bigger.

With 2 rounds not taking place so far is the rest of the season in doubt? Germany is this month and then the final 2 rounds are fly away rounds - would they want to risk that? Is there any local support categories on those fly away rounds or is it just RX1e?

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

With 2 rounds not taking place so far is the rest of the season in doubt?

I don't like to say it (because I fear I will sound like one of the "WRX is dead" morons on Facebook), but I am rather doubtful about the rest of the season at this point.

From what has been said it seems like Kreisel are still researching what has gone on and, based on the Special One statement which ruled out "human error", it seems as though a component has failed.

Given how little appeared to be left of the cars I can't imagine finding the cause of the fire is going to be easy but, even if they do figure that out quickly, it is surely going to take time to engineer, quality assure and then apply a modification/fix to all the existing components.

I assume there is some sort of contract with Kreisel: I guess the alternative would be to terminate that and look to another supplier for the electric drivetrain (and this catastrophic failure would probably give a legitimate cause for terminating an agreement?), but that isn't going to change anything overnight, is it?

Concerning the fly away rounds I'd really like to know how the cars are put together and how "deep" in the car the battery is. Can the batteries be easily removed (and so could the batteries be shipped separately to the cars and then easily installed onsite), or is a lot of disassembly required to get them out?

[tbtstt]

Forgive the double post, but a few pictures of the RX2E field from Lydden...













...more of them and the British contingent here:

World Rallycross Championship Round 4 2023 - Lydden Hill

If anyone is interested.

[BertMk2]

Confirmation that RX1e won't be running in Germany either:

https://www.fiaworldrallycross.com/w...x-at-estering/

So with the final two rounds being RX1e only (unless there is local support?) then pretty much the season is done and dusted isn't it? Surely they won't risk putting on the last two events and then have to pull the plug leaving them with nothing at all to run?

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

So with the final two rounds being RX1e only (unless there is local support?) then pretty much the season is done and dusted isn't it? Surely they won't risk putting on the last two events and then have to pull the plug leaving them with nothing at all to run?

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't want to sound like one of the "World RX is dead" morons on Facebook, but I can't see how wrapping up the 2023 season (at least on the existing schedule) is going to be possible.

Perhaps they could run this year as a 23/24 season, with events very late in the year/early in 2024? Or maybe an amendment to the regulations to conclude the 2023 Championship where it is now, then start again fresh next year? That would perhaps make it a slightly hollow title for JK but, given his form so far this year, I think it would be hard to argue that he wouldn't take it.

I'm also concerned what potential long term consequences there could be for the Championship as well. This is surely going to shake the confidence of sponsors and other teams who might be looking to join the Championship?

[mivec]

Does someone know where to find the "steward desisions" ?
There where some strange things in RX3 in Germany...

[FIRE]

Still no news about RX1e?

[robertsa]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Still no news about RX1e?

They will run the remaining races with RX2e-cars instead of the RX1e.

https://www.fiaworldrallycross.com/a...gKongconfirmed

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by mivec

Does someone know where to find the "steward desisions" ?

Does this help:https://app-cdn.sportity.com/ad86742...2020%20(1).pdf https://app-cdn.sportity.com/ad86742...2012%20RX3.pdf

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Still no news about RX1e?

The season will be concluded using the RX2E cars. Can't think of any other way they could finish the Championship off this year, as I think the investigation into the RX1E is going to run well into the off season.

[BertMk2]

No further news on the investigation into the Lydden fire - until that's complete will we see a calendar for next year? If the investigation drags on will RX1E run at all next year or will RX2E be the top class? (or will WRX run at all?).

There was also a fire at the Formula E test in Valencia yesterday - the fire was pretty well contained although there was quite a lot of damage in the garage the fire took hold in. Testing today cancelled whilst they investigate. Maybe things WRX can learn from this? Hopefully the FIA will have recommendations that span all electric categories.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

No further news on the investigation into the Lydden fire - until that's complete will we see a calendar for next year? If the investigation drags on will RX1E run at all next year or will RX2E be the top class? (or will WRX run at all?).

With human error seemingly ruled out I can't see any investigation into mechanical failure concluding quickly. I might have it wrong, but I would think the outcome of the investigation could have serious financial/contractual repercussions, so I guess they are going to be pretty thorough before announcing any conclusions.

Selecting another supplier seems the obvious choice, but is that even possible? Kriesel are the sole supplier but is it possible to move away from them without breaking contract and potentially incurring a financial penalty? (unless it can be proven that what they have supplied is not safe/fit for purpose?)

I'm not sure RX2E (or maybe an "RX2E+"?) is a great plan, as there are a limited number of cars out there and would you go to the expense of knocking out 10 more cars for a season or two?

Tommy Kristoffersson has made a post or two about using ICE cars again, but I'm not sure if that is an option for at least half the current teams either. GRX have sold all their i20's, most of the Hansen 208's seem to be gone and the Meganes have moved on as well (not that I could see GCK touching them again!). KMS appear to be hanging onto one Polo, but I think it is only them and All Inkl who have petrol Supercars ready to go right now.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

There was also a fire at the Formula E test in Valencia yesterday - the fire was pretty well contained although there was quite a lot of damage in the garage the fire took hold in. Testing today cancelled whilst they investigate. Maybe things WRX can learn from this? Hopefully the FIA will have recommendations that span all electric categories.

I believe there is already set criteria about electric drivetrain components (in terms of performance and safe usage)? I wonder if the Lydden paddock incident might bring about change though.

[FIRE]

If they find no reason for the fire there must be a moment to race the cars again.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

With human error seemingly ruled out I can't see any investigation into mechanical failure concluding quickly. I might have it wrong, but I would think the outcome of the investigation could have serious financial/contractual repercussions, so I guess they are going to be pretty thorough before announcing any conclusions.

Agreed - the fact that it's taken this long suggests that they need to be 100% sure before they announce anything.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Selecting another supplier seems the obvious choice, but is that even possible? Kriesel are the sole supplier but is it possible to move away from them without breaking contract and potentially incurring a financial penalty? (unless it can be proven that what they have supplied is not safe/fit for purpose?)

I'd have thought finding another supplier should be 'relatively' easy - there are other series running electric drivetrains - how much can be carried over is a question though. As you say it may be more of a contractual issue to switch unless fault can be proved.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I'm not sure RX2E (or maybe an "RX2E+"?) is a great plan, as there are a limited number of cars out there and would you go to the expense of knocking out 10 more cars for a season or two?

Is there a potential market for these cars in national championships? Could the cars in theory be sold on once their life in WRX is over? What's the cost of building an RX2E car vs an RX1E car or ICE Supercar? It's a possible stopgap solution.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Tommy Kristoffersson has made a post or two about using ICE cars again, but I'm not sure if that is an option for at least half the current teams either. GRX have sold all their i20's, most of the Hansen 208's seem to be gone and the Meganes have moved on as well (not that I could see GCK touching them again!). KMS appear to be hanging onto one Polo, but I think it is only them and All Inkl who have petrol Supercars ready to go right now.

I don't think they can realistically go back to using ICE - not just because teams have sold the cars but also because of the focus they have put on the 'green credentials' of the electric cars - it'd be a big loss of face to return to ICE.

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I believe there is already set criteria about electric drivetrain components (in terms of performance and safe usage)? I wonder if the Lydden paddock incident might bring about change though.

I'd expect once the investigation is complete there will be a statement from the FIA as well as WRX - possibly even with updates to the FIA rules and regulations. The technology is still very immature so it's only right that things get updated as more is learned.

Originally Posted by FIRE

If they find no reason for the fire there must be a moment to race the cars again.

I'm not sure about this - if they can't find a cause then if they run the cars again they're accepting that risk. Any injuries that result from that decision could then come back to haunt them - if they don't find a cause they could be held liable for future issues? I guess this is why it's taking them so long to try and get an answer.

[CS1]

I spoke with a very credible person from the rallycross world at Rally Legend a few weeks ago and he seemed to think Electric will almost certianly die in a couple of years and ICE will replace it by sheer volume of cars running in the bigger national champs.
Rallyx nordic is getting bigger and bigger and will no doubt evolve into running in other countries and hence gather momentum. French and British gaining momentum as well
He was confident eventually, a European Championship will re-establish itself

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Is there a potential market for these cars in national championships? Could the cars in theory be sold on once their life in WRX is over? What's the cost of building an RX2E car vs an RX1E car or ICE Supercar? It's a possible stopgap solution.

That's a fair point; RX2E are usable in a few of the National Championships, so perhaps there is a market there.

RX2E is surely cheaper than an RX1E and I would think a competitive ICE Supercar. You could maybe buy something older (Supercar) for RX2E money, but building something fresh has to be more.

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I'm not sure about this - if they can't find a cause then if they run the cars again they're accepting that risk. Any injuries that result from that decision could then come back to haunt them - if they don't find a cause they could be held liable for future issues? I guess this is why it's taking them so long to try and get an answer.

I agree. If Kreisel sign off that the cars are safe and then something happens again they will get absolutely crucified. My assumption is that they will want to be 1000% certain before promising anything - and the promoter will surely want an absolutely iron clad guarantee after what has happened to the Championship this year - which leads us back to the earlier point that the ongoing investigation is not going to be quick.

Originally Posted by CS1

I spoke with a very credible person from the rallycross world at Rally Legend a few weeks ago and he seemed to think Electric will almost certianly die in a couple of years and ICE will replace it by sheer volume of cars running in the bigger national champs.

As Bert has already said...

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I don't think they can realistically go back to using ICE - not just because teams have sold the cars but also because of the focus they have put on the 'green credentials' of the electric cars - it'd be a big loss of face to return to ICE.

...I can't see World RX going back to ICE now. They have made so much about the transition it would be a huge embarrassment to have to revert back.

Again, referring to Tommy Kristoffersson, he has been quite vocal to the electric detractors on social media about only being able to contest World RX (i.e. get sponsors) for the electric cars.

I can't see the electric transition filtering down to Euro RX but, unless there is a change in the promoter and/or some sort of radical shake up, I just can't see World RX dropping electric.

(as an aside - and it is probably a conversation for another thread - but I wonder what the future of Nitro will be when the FC1-X reaches the end of its life)

[steve_r]

Clearly something needs to change. A world championship with 8 cars is utterly lame. The grid needs boosting massively. The format of the races is pathetic - heat after heat after heat of the same few cars, and then a semi where one car gets eliminated before 6 of the 8 line up in the final. It's insanity. 8 cars is not enough to fill more than an hour or two of follow the leader racing but these events take the whole weekend.

I know that conventional cars can catch fire, but EV have potential for fires that are far more difficult to contain - Are they really suited to the rough and tumble of rally cross?

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

T
Again, referring to Tommy Kristoffersson, he has been quite vocal to the electric detractors on social media about only being able to contest World RX (i.e. get sponsors) for the electric cars.

I have not seen what he says, but the grid sizes are as low as they have ever been, so clearly EVs have not enticed enough sponsorship to make a viable series.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Clearly something needs to change. A world championship with 8 cars is utterly lame. The grid needs boosting massively.

Yeah, for sure. The numbers definitely hadn't grown as much as I hoped, but we had at least reached double figures for the start of this season and it seemed like there was more interest coming... but I doubt anyone considering an RX1E car has carried on with their plans in the last few months.

I still favour the petrol Supercars, but after seeing the attitude of the cars during the first round I was really enthused by the RX1E cars this year (and the same was true with a few of my rallycross friends). I honestly thought the Championship was starting to regain momentum and then the fire came.

Originally Posted by steve_r

I have not seen what he says, but the grid sizes are as low as they have ever been, so clearly EVs have not enticed enough sponsorship to make a viable series.

I think he might have posted a single statement (I'll have a look later), but he has definitely replied to multiple comments where has stated that many of the major KMS sponsors are only there because of electric and that they would not be interested in sponsoring the team if the Championship was using ICE.

That is obviously just one team, but what Tommy says seems to ring true for most of the teams.

Originally Posted by steve_r

I know that conventional cars can catch fire, but EV have potential for fires that are far more difficult to contain - Are they really suited to the rough and tumble of rally cross?

I mean we haven't got much of a history yet but, touch wood, I don't think we have seen too many issues with EV fires in rally and rallycross thus far (possibly the Sordo Hyundai fire: don't think they ever reached a conclusion on that?).

Obviously the cars (if you can consider them that) in Nitro Rallycross are a very different design, but some of those have been subject to some absolute massive impacts and there have been no fires.

From what was said/seen before the Lydden fire they seemed to be really careful with the batteries, as we saw several cars with warning lights following heavy impacts and those batteries were subsequently removed and inspected.

[FIRE]

Special ONE hits out at FIA, World RX over rallycross fire investigation
World Rallycross outfit Special ONE Racing has hit out at the FIA and the series for what it calls the “lackluster handling of the aftermath” of the fire which destroyed both of the team’s electric Lancia Delta Evo-e race cars in addition to its equipment at Lydden Hill in July.

As well as ruling the team out for the remainder of the year, the fire — which occurred in the team’s paddock area before that weekend’s on-track action had begun — also put the entire RX1e championship on hold.

...

Special ONE Racing pointed out the cause of the fire in a statement issued Thursday, saying, “Various testimonies, surveillance camera footage, telemetry data, and expertise based on samples taken from the debris have definitively established the origin of the blaze: a thermal runaway of the lithium-ion battery onboard the car.

“Kreisel Electric, the supplier of this equipment, which is common to all RX1e category models, could not guarantee that such an incident would not recur in the future. Therefore, the FIA has decided not to allow these cars to compete until further notice,” the statement continued. “If this situation persists, it will have the consequence of jeopardizing the future of the discipline, as it undermines the well-being of all its stakeholders.”

While the FIA and World RX began an investigation into the cause of the fire in its immediate aftermath, there hasn’t been a significant update since it began.

“Today, the Special ONE Racing team regrets that no official analysis report or results have been provided by the FIA or Kreisel Electric,” the team said. “To date, no one seems willing to take responsibility for the fire that Special ONE Racing experienced three months ago. This lack of respect does not allow the team or its partners to move forward.”

...

Spcial ONE hasn’t ruled out building a new pair of Delta Evo-e cars and returning to the series. Driver Sebastien Loeb previously told media including RACER, “I don’t think so,” when asked if the team could return to World RX, adding, “First we need to see how this championship will carry on, then we will be able to take a decision.”

Now the team has opened the door to a comeback, suggesting that it could compete again once it knows the championship’s next steps in response to the fire.

“As the 2024 season approaches, the Special ONE Racing hopes to receive answers regarding the causes of past events and seeks assurances to enable the team to resume the championship next year with even more exceptional Delta Evo-e RX cars,” it said.

Special ONE Racing’s response comes two days after Formula E testing was paused due to another, albeit unrelated, battery fire. Formula E’s battery comes from a different supplier — WAE — and that incident occurred when the battery in question had been removed from the car it had been in for inspection following an on-track issue earlier in the day.

Source: https://racer.com/2023/10/26/special...investigation/

[chasing cars]

The question for me is why a World Championship? Even before electric, numbers were never that big, probably due to the extra cost. Outside Europe you can't really say any tracks became a regular feature, and certainly didn't bring in any regular drivers from outside Europe with the exception of Block.In fact what did WRX add to the sport? Not global recognition that's for sure.

Personally when Electric came in I would have gone with a separate class within the European championship. If as Kristoffersson says, sponsors are only interested in electric, then in time, there would be a natural transition, numbers in RX1e would grow and we would have back a strong European championship.