Where were the doctors?/Delay getting to Ralf (merged)

[sawbench]

No I am not a marshall, but I have organised club motorsport meetings for ever and a day. Seen my best mate upside down blood and big mess...hospital, paralysed and all that

Would you wait for 'the other cars' for 2 minutes to save your son / daughter / wife because C of C says 'wait a minute'.

S*d that. Over the wall I'd go. I wouldn't want to see him/her die.

I don't care for rules if there is someone in the throws of ...... right in front of me.

[Craig]

I don't think anyone is blaming the people on the ground for the delay, Sheila, not those who know anything about the way things work in this so-called sport. I only blame those morons in blazers who insist on doing everything their way when it is obvious that it is potentially endangering lives.

[Francesca]

It was awful to watch but I'm sure Bernie will make sure the situation is investigated

[chezza]

Thanks for the support SheliaM.

The thing is with a situation like this is that marshals are going to see it from one point of view and that fans and spectators will see it from another and odds on that both will be right in some respects.

As for families and friends marshalling...are you crazy??

I watch my boyfriend when he races his Vee as I cannot stand not being there incase something happens. Mostly I marshal when he races, although this isn't very often. If he had a serious accident that my post should attend I would have to say to my IO that I couldn't go as it would be likely that I would do something irrational and could put my own life in danger.

One very big reason why families and friends shouldn't marshal.

[freud]

Originally posted by chezza


The thing is with a situation like this is that marshals are going to see it from one point of view and that fans and spectators will see it from another and odds on that both will be right in some respects.

I dont think so. Everyone sees an accident from one point of view... Driver's life must be saved. Rest is BS.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by sawbench
No I am not a marshall, but I have organised club motorsport meetings for ever and a day. Seen my best mate upside down blood and big mess...hospital, paralysed and all that

Would you wait for 'the other cars' for 2 minutes to save your son / daughter / wife because C of C says 'wait a minute'.

S*d that. Over the wall I'd go. I wouldn't want to see him/her die.

I don't care for rules if there is someone in the throws of ...... right in front of me.

Sorry sawbench - my apologies. This is going to sound all wrong but I thought you were just another sofa racer, I didn't realise you were involved in the sport.

I appreciate what you are saying now.

I think Craig has hit the nail on the head when he refers to the morons in blazers.

[sawbench]

`Exactly Freud

If the safety car was out, then why weren't the marshalls there at RS's Side?

They seem to be there before the flippin's CART / IRL car has come to a halt do they not Mr Freud?

Craig Antill is right. They do it all by the book these days. 'Don't do this and don't do that' cos it says so in the book.

Well this is a bloke's life and stuff the book.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by freud
I dont think so. Everyone sees an accident from one point of view... Driver's life must be saved. Rest is BS.

Yes the driver's life must be saved but not at the risk of your own.

We marshals have it drummed into us that the most important thing in racing is our own safety, then that of our colleagues, then the driver. Which, if you think about it is pretty sensible. Marshals are there for safety reasons and if you are busy getting injured you can't be there for the driver when he needs you.

[freud]

Imho, the marshalls should've been there within seconds... The medical team should've been there within seconds. Someone should've jumped across the pitwall to Ralf's car. The medical ambulance should've driven backwards on the track to his car. Its just utter illogical and insensible to even think that Marshalls are trying to save their lives before the life of a driver or they were scared to get to his car because it was a 'dangerous' part of the circuit with concrete walls.

And, mind you, Ms Sheila, marshals most probably do not think the way you are. Their instinctive reaction is to run towards an accident, no matter what part of the circuit. Obviously they are always careful, buts thats their instinct and they must be commended for it.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by sawbench
[B
If the safety car was out, then why weren't the marshalls there at RS's Side?

They seem to be there before the flippin's CART / IRL car has come to a halt do they not Mr Freud?

Craig Antill is right. They do it all by the book these days. 'Don't do this and don't do that' cos it says so in the book.

Well this is a bloke's life and stuff the book. [/B]

Probably because there were no marshal's posts near to the incident. Yes I know it was in the vicinity of the pit lane but pit lane marshals are not incident teams and should not get involved in trackside incidents unless they are specifically asked to do so.

As for CART/IRL safety teams getting there quickly that's because they have totally different rules - sensible ones.

[freud]

Strange.. the safest formula in motorsport doesnt have as sensible rules as CART/IRL... I dont think you are right.

[sawbench]

Freud you are on top form.

Top gear and full steam ahead to you wherever you are on this Planet.

[Mackmot]

If it was one of my cars and no one had gone to him I would have gone onto the track myself. You'd soon see a few Stephen Green's come flying.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by freud
Imho, the marshalls should've been there within seconds... The medical team should've been there within seconds. Someone should've jumped across the pitwall to Ralf's car. The medical ambulance should've driven backwards on the track to his car. Its just utter illogical and insensible to even think that Marshalls are trying to save their lives before the life of a driver or they were scared to get to his car because it was a 'dangerous' part of the circuit with concrete walls.

And, mind you, Ms Sheila, marshals most probably do not think the way you are. Their instinctive reaction is to run towards an accident, no matter what part of the circuit. Obviously they are always careful, buts thats their instinct and they must be commended for it.

If this was a "clubbie" meeting at, say Mallory Park, then yes you are perfectly correct in assuming that the marshals would be there in seconds - I'd have been the first over the pit wall with the rest of my team behind me. However we are not talking clubbie meetings - we are talking F1 with a totally different set of rules.

[freud]

And those 'set of rules' are written to protect drivers. Not to carry the 'show' on.

[chezza]

Originally posted by freud
[B]And, mind you, Ms Sheila, marshals most probably do not think the way you are. Their instinctive reaction is to run towards an accident, no matter what part of the circuit. Obviously they are always careful, buts thats their instinct and they must be commended for it.[B]

I'm sorry but most marshals [B]DO[B] think the way that Shelia does.

Yes it is instict to run to an incident but it is also instinct not to put your life in unneccessary danger, this as shelia has said is drummed into marshals from day one.

Also marshals (at least at silverstone) are told not to come off the pit wall unless they are told to...it is just too dangerous.

[freud]

Chezza, would I say that what you think is utter farcical... No. But I dont think you are right and you are not really appreciating the Marshall community in any way.

Please dont forget that SC was out within seconds after the initial impact and each and every marshall perfectly knew that. It WASNT unsafe for the marshalls to go out to his car immediately after the accident, while it had stopped on the track.

[Fantasy GP610]

IMHO it was a absolute disgrace that a driver was left for that length of time without any medical help.

If there was a reason he was left for that length of time then that reason needs to be looked at to ensure that the same situation NEVER happens again.

For me it is simple,when you are talking about a man's life the sport of F1 pales into utter insignificance.

That race should have been red-flagged and the first priority should have been the welfare of the driver.

Diabolical situation............

[Adam43]

A very important topic. Certainly it took a long time to get someone to Ralf. However in debating what should have been done we need to take step back. (Over) Heated debate might not help.

One type (nationality/series/etc...) of marshalling being better than another is not the issue in itself, rather what can be learnt from elsewhere.

Additionally the individual situation along with the general situation needs to be considered. I'm not saying either way, but is a Marshal jumping on the track the best thing? Is it 'yes' in this case, but 'no' in a lot of other cases? In which case if you have one guideline do you chose 'yes' or 'no' OR can you have variable guidelines?

[chezza]

Originally posted by freud
Chezza, would I say that what you think is utter farcical... No. But I dont think you are right and you are not really appreciating the Marshall community in any way.

Am not really sure what you mean by this?!

[freud]

Simply put it.. lets not blame the marshalls or the f1 rules. F1 has the best safety rules and the marshalls do their best to be there at the scene. Someone just didnt instructed the marshalls nearby the scene to run towards ralf's car.

The delay was the fault of the organizers and the so called 'local indy rules'.. plain and simple. There was no organization and it seems as if everyone was confused and 'waiting'. And it didnt go well with the large chunk of the fans.

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by freud
Simply put it.. lets not blame the marshalls or the f1 rules. F1 has the best safety rules and the marshalls do their best to be there at the scene. Someone just didnt instructed the marshalls nearby the scene to run towards ralf's car.

The delay was the fault of the organizers and the so called 'local indy rules'.. plain and simple. There was no organization and it seems as if everyone was confused and 'waiting'. And it didnt go well with the large chunk of the fans.

freud, I'm so glad you are not blaming the marshals - you seem to appreciate that we do our best.

[freud]

Well, I gave a general opinion on Marshalls. I wouldnt want to blame he Indy marshalls as I guess they were waiting for a 'green' signal from the top before they go out on track... However, had the track been silverstone, Marshalls would've taken an initiative..

[Chigley]

However, had the track been silverstone, Marshalls would've taken an initiative..

WRONG. This is another marshal wading in. WE DO NOT run out onto live F1 tracks at any time, at any venue without authorisation from the race director. FULL STOP. Even Stephen of the green priest fame was instructed by race control not to go trackside until he deemed it safe to do so. Had Race control not given permission no one would have moved. A hell of a lot of people would have been requesting permission to remove him, but you DO NOT go trackside till cleared by race control when at a F1 meeting. Even if instructed by race control to go trackside and you think it is not safe you don't go until it is. Remember we are volunteers and not paid officials who can be ordered.

Other events, yes, we do. But F1 we cannot.

Marshals have 4 rules drummed into them from day one.

1. Look after yourself. (Don't become another incident/caualty). We are stretched enough (even at GP'S) without causing unnecessary problems.

2. Look after your fellow marshals. Same reasons as above.

3. Look after the driver.

4. If possible look after the car. Remember its only a car.

Anyone who doesn't like them. TOUGH. Because that's the order we observe. Gun ho leaping in regardless is the quickest way to get killed. And martyr's we are not; some are brave, but most of us are sensible self preserving Joe Bloggs.

[ggreen29]

F1 driver Tom Pryce was killed by a marshall who showed initiative during the 1977 Kyalami GP. The marshall, carrying a fire extinguisher, ran across the track to another wreck and got hit by Pryce's Shadow. The fire extinguisher hit Pryce in the head, apparently cracking helmet and skull. The car of course slaughtered the marshall who showed initiative. Both died at the track. Nobody died in the wreck that the marshall who showed initiative was running to.