Miller on merger attempt

[The Snout]

Nothing much new in this offer really. Help with cars and engines plus adding a few choice venues is pretty much par with anything previously rumoured about in past attempts.

This new offer doesn't offer anything to Cosworth at all which probably doesn't help it's cause either.

Add a place for Cosworth in the offer and a couple of IRL board seats and it might at least make the runway, but as it is I don't seeing it flying.

[indycool]

"I hate Tony George and the IRL" -- mountainstar, whose self-control will keep him from punching him in the mouth.

To suggest that the IRL and CC are equal in assets, visibility and viability is ludiicrous, IMO. The Indianapolis 500 itself covers a whole CC season in TV ratings and over the course of the month of May, probably exceeds attendance to any medium multiple of CC events.

CC may well have its place. But it wasn't Asia. And it isn't the streets of U.S. cities. And the current focus is on Europe. Three changes of direction in four years. If it continues, I hope it finds its place where it fits into the motorsports community instead of being only the "I Hate Tony George Championship."

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by indycool

"I hate Tony George and the IRL" -- mountainstar, whose self-control will keep him from punching him in the mouth.

If it continues, I hope it finds its place where it fits into the motorsports community instead of being only the "I Hate Tony George Championship."

Unfortunately, that is really the only reason to keep this going at this point. A series whose premise is based upon hate, with forums of people who hate. It isn't about a love for racing, or Open Wheel racing... just hate.... Really, this needs to get done sooner, than later. Thank You mountainstar, for at least clearing that up for us.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Unfortunately, that is really the only reason to keep this going at this point. A series whose premise is based upon hate, with forums of people who hate. It isn't about a love for racing, or Open Wheel racing... just hate.... Really, this needs to get done sooner, than later. Thank You mountainstar, for at least clearing that up for us.

Well there is nothing wrong with hating something. We all have our likes and dislikes. I know I have mine.

We love our sport and don't like what has happened. What's interesting is that you and indycool have tried to twist this like us champcar fans are all evil haterz sitting around scheming the destruction of the irl, yet you skimmed right over the substance of the proposals I put forth. Both you and indycool have framed me as some sort of evil person yet you both wish for the destruction of champcar, it's teams and it's fans. Pot calling the kettle black.

It's a shame.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

"I hate Tony George and the IRL" -- mountainstar, whose self-control will keep him from punching him in the mouth.

To suggest that the IRL and CC are equal in assets, visibility and viability is ludiicrous, IMO. The Indianapolis 500 itself covers a whole CC season in TV ratings and over the course of the month of May, probably exceeds attendance to any medium multiple of CC events.

CC may well have its place. But it wasn't Asia. And it isn't the streets of U.S. cities. And the current focus is on Europe. Three changes of direction in four years. If it continues, I hope it finds its place where it fits into the motorsports community instead of being only the "I Hate Tony George Championship."

He's not really worth it is he?

Well if you are confident, then let's wait to see the supposedly quality field who fronts up at Homestead and then later at Indy.

[mountainstar]

I thought it might of interest to go back and read the original Gurney white paper from 1978 suggesting the formation of CART.

http://www.allamericanracers.com/cart_white-paper.html

[indycool]

I've read the White Paper. It has some good thoughts, particularly for the time it was conceived. CART was really born, led by Penske, Patrick, Tyler Alexander, Jerry O'Connell and others at a time when the series needed a boost, right after Tony Hulman had died and the tragic USAC plane crash occurred, leaving a void of leadership and they grabbed it up and took the sport forward. And as they set the stage, PPG threw money into it and held it together with the "500," overcoming what we have today.

But that was 29 years ago. A lot has changed, a lot has happened since then. And CC never has been CART and was unnecessary four years ago when it was born by people with far different reasons than the founders of CART ever envisioned. Therefore, Dan Gurney's White Paper, a treasure of its time, does not apply.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

Therefore, Dan Gurney's White Paper, a treasure of its time, does not apply.

I'm sure that would suit you to toss all that away, but I would say "those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it" does apply here. It has many good points valid today and in this scenario we are in now.

What exactly do you propose for the "Roadmap to Peace" and why?

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well there is nothing wrong with hating something. We all have our likes and dislikes. I know I have mine.

We love our sport and don't like what has happened. What's interesting is that you and indycool have tried to twist this like us champcar fans are all evil haterz sitting around scheming the destruction of the irl, yet you skimmed right over the substance of the proposals I put forth. Both you and indycool have framed me as some sort of evil person yet you both wish for the destruction of champcar, it's teams and it's fans. Pot calling the kettle black.

It's a shame.

The overall situation is getting gradually worse, and can only improve once there is one unified series and one common direction. The IRL has much more direction than CCWS, rather than dabbling in Asia and then trying Europe again. Importantly for the fans, there is much more consistency in terms of drivers - half of CCWS' 2007 lineup was rookie, many of those will be gone for 2008, guys like Philippe and (briefly) Servia built their reputations and fanbases but then ended up without a seat when the Amigos had finished juggling the cash. The new car didn't increase the grid, despite constant promises that it would, and even the Atlantics rebuilding hasn't produced any new CCWS drivers.

Neither championship is in particularly strong shape (not helped by NASCAR's boom over the last 15 or so years), but the IRL framework provides a much more solid foundation. If the priority of the Amigos really is racing, this is the time for them to accept a deal, before they pour all their personal wealth into a championship which has no hope of advancing.

[JohnSSC]

This is getting scary...

I have my likes and dislikes, but the opposite of love is not hate - the opposite of love is indifference.

Hate (to feel hostility or animosity towards) is (to me) not a basis on which to operate in my daily life. I love my family. That does not mean that I "hate" everyone else.

Basing your activities on your hatred of something is a dangerous thing. I have been to those "fan" sites and the things that are said about people like TG and Miller are frankly, embarassing if you consider yourself an educated, thinking human being. It is like reading unfiltered vitriol. If the words are a window to these souls than clearly there is an unwillingness to approach this issue in a rational way.

As far as an "independent" company to run things, that would be lovely - but saying that this is the solution for now implies that the IRL has failed as - it is, rather, the part of CIRCL that is least in need of life-support. If TG has the resources then to make the offer he has, I would say that the hope of an "independent" company to run things is part of a future vision.

Methinks that some want their cake and to eat it too: a merger, but only if TG is reduced to team owner status just like the Amigos. The problem there is that TG will always be in a better position tactically and financially than the amigos.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

What's interesting is that you and indycool have tried to twist this like us champcar fans are all evil haterz sitting around scheming the destruction of the irl, yet you skimmed right over the substance of the proposals I put forth. Both you and indycool have framed me as some sort of evil person yet you both wish for the destruction of champcar, it's teams and it's fans. Pot calling the kettle black.

It's a shame.

I hardly think I've twisted, or misinterpreted your words. Perhaps you could go back and read what you've written. Honestly, I don't think your proposals have substance at the current time, if you want me to discuss in detail why, I'd be glad to. Perhaps if it were two equals negotiating, that might be worthwhile, but it no longer is. TG holds all of the cards now, and CC is on life support. I'm not saying the IRL is strong, or in great shape, but it is miles ahead of CC.

Please point out where I've called for the destruction of CC teams, or it's fans? For the record, I'm from the Champcar side, not the IRL side, never having had a great deal of interest in ovals. However, I have the capability of evaluating circumstances and I'm not clouded by hate.

I said it months ago, CC is dying, it's time to move forward to create one series, that at least might have a chance of saving Open Wheel in North America.

[Mystery]

I think an equitable split (i didn't say equal) would be appropriate but if the Amigos expect the likes of TG to recompense them for money they've poured down the drain then they're living in a dream world.

Whilst I hate to tear apart individual posts in here out of fear of being seen to pick on a post or poster, I do feel intrigued by the double standard on display being seen to be right that TG should recompense the Amigos for money they've spent whilst at the same time stating that the IRL (and presumably therefore TG) has burned through $300m - should he not be given credit for that in the same way?

Similarly, if TG expects the CC mob to shut up shop quietly without as much as a voice on the board of a new series then similarly he's not basing his views on business reality.

A 50/50 split just isn't realistic at present. The future is much less insecure for the IRL and as a result why should its owners be expected to prop up the other series? Instead TG has probably done the only sensible thing open to him and offered his services to the teams.

However this isn't an anti-CC post. I hark back to my great memories of CC watching the likes of Blundell and Mansell coming over to shake things up. Even as recently as the Montoya and Franchitti title battle it was great to watch and made a fantastic change to the increasingly stale F1. Things need to change and if one series needs to die that so be it. For the record I have similar views about F1 - I would love for manufacturers to start pulling out to stop money pouring out of the sport into the rights holders' pockets.

[luke]

Well I am so fed up of the rubbish I am not going to watch any races this year IRL as well. CC is over, and those rubbishing the fact the IRL is worth more other than the 500 and is doing a lot better are kidding themselves. CC and IRL are both dying and it's so bs and seeing how things have come and that they can't merge when both are in such a lame state when one is going to die or both they can't merge, stuff them. I'm not the only one who feels this way. Loads of fans have been lost over the years of the split, do something quick KK, TG just get it done before your power is gone forever when you have no series and no fans are left. Cause that is very close to happening.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

...
If you think you're in a great position let's wait and see what turns up at Homestead? And indy? Duno, Roth, Chesson are hardly names people will be vaulting barricades to see race.

yes, and minor, unknown, unfunded teams like Penske, Andretti , Ganassi!
Whereas CC can caount of world-size corporations like PKV, Minardi, etc, and worldwide superstars like Dornboos, Pagenaud and Philippe, drivers that regularly leave the whole USA breathless when they get on the grid!

Please ms, ok you're a CC diehard fan, but refrain from the ridicoulous

...

Originally Posted by mountainstar

...
Forsythe and Kalkoven have enough money that if they are really ****ed off enough they can subsidize champcar for years to come.

A-HA! By that you admit CC is worse than IRL, At least TG hasn't got to subsidize the whole paddock, just 2 ot 3 drivers

Of course you have any right to like a CC series funded forever by the amigos...

[Mystery]

Well said that man (referring to Luke's post). The presence of Dario, Hornish and Villeneuve has been enough to convince me to sign up for a season of watching Nascar and at least I'm confident all scheduled races will go ahead.

[indycool]

mountainstar, you focus on the conclusion to my post, not how I reached that conclusion.

The Penskes and Patricks, etc., were part of the racing "family" at that point in 1979 with the, yes, Gurneys.

Of the Amigos, only Forsythe has any experience in the Indy car family. And he was not a founder of CART and his participation in founding CC was a bad guess at recovering some of the $30 million he lost in CART stock. Kalkhoven is a venture capitalist who's a rookie in the sport and Petit is his tagalong. Gentilozzi was just looking for a way to be a BMOC.

The motives and involvement of the ownership of CC are far different from the motives and involvement of Gurney, Patrick, Penske, etc. They aren't even close.

A way to make a merger work? Frankly, the CC teams would be an asset, the ones that could answer the bell and join a merger, but CC doesn't own them, anyway. Some (as in maybe 3-4) CC events would be useful in a merger. Confusion to the public would be less. But a merger isn't the solution to everybody's individual problems, it's a PARTIAL solution to major open-wheel racing's problems in North America.

And, based on Miller's piece, if Forsythe thinks he's owed $100 million to merge, he's peeing into the wind. CC bought CART's assets off the courthouse steps for $3 million. Somebody try to convince me that CC has appreciated 33 times in four years.

[climb]

spot on indycool!

[luke]

....And this is why there won't be a merge anytime soon because CC won't want to be controlled by the IRL, and TG won't do 50/50. CC isn't worth $100 mill, especially when the assets were bought for $3 mill I agree IC, however it shouldn't be taken as gospel from RM especially when the only source is from him as I believe?

For 1 series, it just needs to be based around the Indy 500, and include CC events (the great ones that is) and the top teams and drivers from CC as well. TBH offering free Hondas and Dallaras along with wasn't it $1.2 mil to race for the year isn't a bad offer, but like I said, and Eric Bachalart said; the CC guys won't like be run 100% under by TG, and TG won't ever go 50/50. They need their heads banging together and sat down in a room locked together with guns pointed at their heads and forced to merge else there will be no fans left and both will go under. Whether the 500 remains as it is what it is remains to be seen but I wouldn't put my house on it..

[indycool]

luke, there will be an Indianapolis 500 if they hafta run garden tractors in it.

[luke]

It's likely but not certain.

[jhansen]

I'll interject a few comments on this from the sidelines. I used to follow CART very closely and would be at Laguna every year to watch. After the split, I was less interested, but still watched some of the races. I also had casual interest in the IRL in its early years. I watch neither now and only suffer through some of the news for each series in an attempt to be informed. In my opinion, CC is a joke and the IRL is a joke. And if I am honest, much of this discussion is discouraging. IF a merger happens I will probably take up an interest in North American open wheel racing again. And you know what; I don’t care what the details are of said merger. I would be happy as long as Indy remains Indy plus some oval races, some road course races, a few street races, and a quality entry. IF no merger, then both series will remain irrelevant in my eyes.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

This is getting scary...

I have my likes and dislikes, but the opposite of love is not hate - the opposite of love is indifference.

Hate (to feel hostility or animosity towards) is (to me) not a basis on which to operate in my daily life. I love my family. That does not mean that I "hate" everyone else.

Basing your activities on your hatred of something is a dangerous thing. I have been to those "fan" sites and the things that are said about people like TG and Miller are frankly, embarassing if you consider yourself an educated, thinking human being. It is like reading unfiltered vitriol. If the words are a window to these souls than clearly there is an unwillingness to approach this issue in a rational way.

As far as an "independent" company to run things, that would be lovely - but saying that this is the solution for now implies that the IRL has failed as - it is, rather, the part of CIRCL that is least in need of life-support. If TG has the resources then to make the offer he has, I would say that the hope of an "independent" company to run things is part of a future vision.

Methinks that some want their cake and to eat it too: a merger, but only if TG is reduced to team owner status just like the Amigos. The problem there is that TG will always be in a better position tactically and financially than the amigos.

Oh John you're so melodramatic. I'm being very rational and always have been. Why not find the middle ground so peace can be found?

The irl has failed. It's had 12 years and it's on it's knees. Indy used to be a great event that took up the month of may. There is no innovation, few drivers of interest with many leaving for nascar left and right, pole day and bump day are DEAD like a ghost town, sponsors are drying up left and right, Homestead and Watkins Glen are about to get the boot, Honda might be out the door etc, TV rating suck, etc.

It had it's chance and has failed big time.

[mountainstar]

[QUOTE=climb..

A-HA! By that you admit CC is worse than IRL, At least TG hasn't got to subsidize the whole paddock, just 2 ot 3 drivers

Of course you have any right to like a CC series funded forever by the amigos...[/QUOTE]

I don't see anywhere were I admitted Champcar is worse than the irl. I'll rephase it since you didn't get it the first time. The amigos, if THEY HAD TO, could fund champcar for years and years and years. This could go on for years and years if they so desired.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

The Penskes and Patricks, etc., were part of the racing "family" at that point in 1979 with the, yes, Gurneys.

The motives and involvement of the ownership of CC are far different from the motives and involvement of Gurney, Patrick, Penske, etc. They aren't even close.

Well that is key, you don't consider us part of the family. Until you do any merger offer is going nowhere, in my eyes. Unconditional surrender is not a "merger", nor is putting our 30 year history in the trash can.

Reading the white paper the motives of the amigos are no different. They want a successful open wheel racing series.

[mountainstar]

The great irony in all this assuming tony george gets the total control and domination as he so desires, is that the success or failure of open wheel racing will truly be on his shoulders. There wont be any champcar, cart and all us wicked people to blame anymore.