Ford ends its relationship

[Rich D]

Originally Posted by climb

Regardless of formally thankful declarations, what does that imply for CC?

Well, those teams who have alredy painted their cars will have to go over the Ford logos!

[coyote9999]

From what I have read Ford was willing to give more to the series and it was turned down. Why would Ford want to give more to the series? Simple, the 5 year plan seems to be working and Ford might have given little in return.

Ford gave some money to Montreal, Edmonton, Toronto, and Mexico events. They will have a loss which most probably was not primary sponsorship.

Ford gave some cash for publicity on TV which is going to be better this year hence the desire Ford had to increase the sponsorhip level. This is the only thing we don't know the full value of really. It's far for the Nascar amount and most probably a couple million. The other freebies were cans and trucks awarded to champ car and sponsors at discount rates (very low if any).

I don't have the numbers for sure but can we agree that close to 7 million was lost to CCWS and 2 million to the venues.

If this is the case then I say Owrs can get more. I doubt KK and friends let Ford go without some form of plan. Let's wait and see what they come up with. Maybe in the long run it will be beneficial to lose some money to make much more.

[Snrub]

I don't think CC can do better than what Ford was paying. CC is lucky when it has any sponsorship, let alone the kind that Ford was providing. Helping out venues is a big deal when they have trouble paying the bills.

As for the discounts on Ford vehicles, Ford probably just gave CC teams X-plan (2% above dealer invoice) or A-Plan (2% under dealer invoice). A friend's father built a sign for Ford and received an X-Plan pin for being a supplier.

As for Hyundai, I seem to recall the 2006 Sonota being repeatedly reviewed a little better than the 2006 Camry. I just looked it up, Hyundai appeared to be in the black last year.

[indycool]

coyote, if CC could have gotten more, it WOULD have. Now it's in the position of finding one in 2 1/2 months before the season opener that will supply safety trucks, buy TV commercials, do B2B hospitality, etc., etc. Sorry, agree with Snrub.

[coyote9999]

Snrub,

Remember the wave of unhappy people when Toyota anounced it was leaving Atlantics. People were even saying we would lose Long Beach because Toyota was a title sponsor. It ends up Mazda gave slighlty more and KK and friends bought Long Beach. So let's wait and see.

[coyote9999]

Ah Indycool I see you are your usual optimistic self about Champ Cars. If you look at the list of sponsors and partners on the site right now on the CCWS there are more names now then when KK and friends bought the series. Who said they absolutely need to find someone to replace Ford in 2 and a half months? I never said that. And 2 and a half months is enough time to prepare stuff for fans.

[indycool]

I've looked at the new logo without Bridgestone and Ford on it. IMO, that's not a good thing.

People have offered alternatives to Ford, which may or may not have any semblance of a sniff at it and we don't know one way or the other. In any case, losing two presenting sponsors can't be construed as a gain. I'm mystified by those who think that.

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

In any case, losing two presenting sponsors can't be construed as a gain. I'm mystified by those who think that.

No one on this forum has said that...

[indycool]

In rereading the whole thread, luke, you're right, although some have seemed to consider it pretty minor. I HAVE read on other fora those with a "good riddance, Ford" 'tude. I stand corrected here.

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

In rereading the whole thread, luke, you're right, although some have seemed to consider it pretty minor. I HAVE read on other fora those with a "good riddance, Ford" 'tude. I stand corrected here.

I think I know which forum you mean, and "good riddance" after what Ford has given Champ Car is petty IMHO...

[indycool]

Hey, we agree on one!

[luke]

Lol.

[norman-normal]

Ford was doing great everywhere but the US, over all, however, lost $12B because of the steep decline of the truck and SUV which was a greater % of Fords business then GM's. Ford was forced to take a $17b loan to reorganize; the lenders are not fond of OW racing.

KK plans to capitalize on the Cosworth name in the auto after market: they sell oil a lot of engine racing and rally parts for Ford and many other manufactures worldwide. If no one steps up to the plate, the cosworth name will figure prominently on the cars and advertising. The only question is: how much money has KK got? can he sustain the loss of Ford Bucks and push Cosworth new products development enough to capitalize on the advertising? Stay tuned.

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Toyota could take their own advice when looking at their F1 programme then...

so true!
but TRD, USA and TTE GmBH are so different any way.
shame on toyota really- now they are going to out spend everyone in NASCAR

[JohnSSC]

Ford LOST $12.5 Billion in 2006. Some analysts are predicting that Ford will file a Chapter 11 by 2008 or 2009 at the latest.

To expect Ford to continue a relationship that devotes any resources to something that is not going to bring a return right now is silly. At this point, one wonders what level of support NASCAR will continue to get, but I digress.

I find it interesting here that after reviling Toyota and Honda for what "they did to CC/CART" these are among the first two companies to be nominated to replace Ford. So are our memories that short? Honda money is evil when it is associated with IRL but would be ok if they came back?

There is a serious issue when you lose not one but both of your Title Sponsors in the space of a few months. If this is not a wake-up call I don't know what it will take - perhaps YouTube clips showing them padlocking the doors of race teams might get the message across.

No, I am not saying the demise of either series is imminent, BUT, this is not a positive.

[paul-collins]

I've never understood why people would say that Honda is evil. I've always admired their desire for competition, and their engineering prowess. Toyota I'm not so fond of - I wasn't fond of them when they were in CART, and I certainly don't care for them now. (I've always felt that they bought their accolades rather than earned them - remember them poaching Ganassi and claiming to be "defending champions?")

Hyundai would be a great addition to any series, but their management structure is pretty much irrelevant to the direction of the company (unless they're part of the oligarchy). The family decides, and they're right now a bit distracted by some legal issues, so they won't be going racing - anywhere - anytime soon.

As I said before, what's the benefit of having one manufacturer badging the engines at this point? Ford's presence was a legacy of the engine competition days, and so it was admirable in a "loyalty" sort of sense. I just don't see the ROI for a new manufacturer coming in by themselves to badge the engines. They could still be a sponsor and gain something that way, but the engines themselves would be irrelevant to the overall package IMO.

[Snrub]

I think there's definately some benefit from the engines being badged for a certain manufacturer. While WE all know they're just badges, we account for a small number of the overall fans. I have gone to the Detroit Autoshow the last few years and its funny to hear the general public's comments and perception. I couple years ago this guy was with some friends (mixed gender) and they were looking at the Mazda Renesis (rotary) engine display. He pointed to the alternator and said "that's the turbo." His friends nodded and said "ahh." (for those that don't know, the engine has no turbo to begin with and pretty much anything with a hose connected to it might have made more sense to be "the turbo")

Most people are going to have a positive impression of the manufacturer who's name is on the engine cover, particularly if the announcers, etc. play it up a bit. Most people would be impressed because of the speed, etc. and it creates a positive association with the brand. IMO Ford needed that perception because that's a weakness and people who might normally buy imports have a poor impression of the brand. I think its a different demographic than the people who cheer for GM, Ford or Dodge in Nascar. Those people probably don't have a poor impression of the brand.

Times of trouble are not the time to cut marketing efforts. I suspect it was more that they didn't feel that they were getting the returns from CC. Ford has some signs of life. Edge is a home run and should generate some profits. The new Focus stinks, but it is so low margin they can't make money off of it anyway. Unfortunately while the Fusion is great, but there's no margin. F-150 and Super Dutys are high profit vehicles and very good. They need to continue to cut some capacity to keep their costs in line and they can make some money off of them. They've revived Ranger, I suspect there is some profit to be made there because it uses early-mid 80s design and they can't keep them on the dealer lots right now. Explorer and Sport Track are now niche vehicles, but I don't think they have to be unprofitable. Basically all that's left is 500 and Freestyle and they're probably losing on them due to the volume. Lincoln and Mercury are slowly coming back to life so hopefully they can be a source of profit. In general there are going to be big losses right now due to writing stuff off.

Here's an intersting article on the subject of Ford and CC: http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/174750

[mac]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Toyota I'm not so fond of - I wasn't fond of them when they were in CART, and I certainly don't care for them now. (I've always felt that they bought their accolades rather than earned them - remember them poaching Ganassi and claiming to be "defending champions?")

I've gotta tell you - Toyota, like any manufacturer, has to justify every dollar they spend in motorsport, or any other area.

I laugh at suggestions that they "buy accolades" - if they are in racing, they are in it because they think it is worthwhile, not because they want to make another purchase.

As racing fans, I would have thought you would be a fan of a company that is happy to sink a stack of mulah into racing.

[JohnSSC]

There is always a place for manufacturers in racing. Keeping the tail from wagging the dog is the trick.

My amusement here comes from reading a couple of years worth of threads where Toyota/Honda supposedly ruined everything and now Toyota/Honda have become the solution. Perhaps it is my rather twisted sense of irony, but it just tickles my guano to read these statements!

Getting back to topic (although the Ford discussion is truly interesting - how do you go from mega profits to mega losses...), one poster noted that, essentially, everything is fine as the 5-year plan is rolling right along as if, somehow, losing both title sponsors was not only anticipated but desirable.

This reminds me of General Custer's last (verifiable) words. As the 7th Calvary was about to head down toward the Indian's encampment, he turned to his troopers and yelled: "We've got 'em now, boys!!"

Yep, everything was completely under control at that moment and victory was at hand...George was just missing a few small pieces of information...

My point here is that there was not and is not a line of potential title sponsors waiting out there for either series. However minimal the support may have been and no matter how great the support may have been the bottom line is that now for CC there is no title sponsor support.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by mac

I've gotta tell you - Toyota, like any manufacturer, has to justify every dollar they spend in motorsport, or any other area.

I laugh at suggestions that they "buy accolades" - if they are in racing, they are in it because they think it is worthwhile, not because they want to make another purchase.

As racing fans, I would have thought you would be a fan of a company that is happy to sink a stack of mulah into racing.

Well, I'm not. Toyota's history of spending on motorsports shows a lot of wrecked series - largely because Toyota brings so much to bear on the subject.

They plunder the motorsports landscape with clear-cut* techniques.

The only place there's fiscal room for that sort of investment is F1; witness the grumbling of non-Toyota teams in NASCAR as the prices get driven up...

*by this I mean to make a comparison to logging practices

[mac]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Well, I'm not. Toyota's history of spending on motorsports shows a lot of wrecked series - largely because Toyota brings so much to bear on the subject.

What a load of rot. I cannot accept that Toyota has brought about the destruction of a single series that I know of.

So Toyota threw money at winning in CART - big deal, so did Honda.

Good luck to them - they wanted to win it! Again kudos to them for making such an investment in motorsport - rather than sponsoring a golf tournament.

As I said, something I thought race fans might appreciate.

They went to IRL - its their money. They can do what they want - they wanted to win the Indy 500. Now they want to win NASCAR.

Originally Posted by paul-collins

The only place there's fiscal room for that sort of investment is F1; witness the grumbling of non-Toyota teams in NASCAR as the prices get driven up...

Again, garbage. You can't be suggesting that Toyota makes the same sort of fiscal investment in F1 that they did in CART or IRL. Toyota make an F1-size investment in F1. They'll make a NASCAR contribution in NASCAR, and they invest a Super GT-size investment in Super GT.

Toyota's supposedly lavish ways are substantially over-represented. Yes, they are a very financially successful company - and yes they make sizeable investments in various forms of racing.

If they choose to leave, it is up to the individual series to have a strong enough structure to deal with it. If a series goes bust because a manufacturer pulls out, it is hardly the manufacturer's fault.

I reckon there are some Toyota F1 types who would suggest they aren't the most affluent spenders in the pitlane - certainly not way over the odds like many suggest.

[norman-normal]

I'm sure Toyota would agree with you mac but I don't, tho I admire your devotion to the obvious.

[Minicross424]

Toyota should stop looking like prats in f1 and come back to support a real series!
Failing that, sack Ralf Schmacher and use his huge retainer to sponsor ccws!!

[luke]

I wonder how it is that Toyota's vast budget continues to go to waste, year after year. As Ford is going, Toyota supply the engines again.

[Fish_Flake]

Please, let's not talk about Toyota. They've spent billions of dollars over the years on racing, and have very little to show for it. Five years of lackluster results in Formula 1; three failed Le Mans attempts. Years of slow unreliability in CART followed by a brief moment of blistering unreliability. Getting a year's head start on Honda in the IRL, only to fall hopelessly off the pace once Honda caught up. A NASCAR launch without a single respectable anchor for the program. The only success that they have tasted has been in the World Rally Championship, and even then they were merely nipping at the heels of Lancia and Suburu, companies with a fraction of the manpower and resources that Toyota has at its disposal.

I don't even see how Toyota entered this conversation at all. Ford's in big financial trouble, and they somehow will have to find a way to right the ship. Cutting back on sponsorships is an unfortunate part of that equation. I doubt that Toyota has any interest in bonding another relationship with Champ Car at the moment.