New safety car rules

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by Matt

There were no collisions.

I like your confidence! So you can whole-heartedly say to me without a shadow of doubt that in the entire time this "race to the caution" existed there were absolutely no accidents due to drivers going full speed past an accident to get to the finish??

[rik]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

The problem isn't the rule itself, moreso that drivers have become accustomed with safety car = entertainment car.

Heard a few criticisms of the Abu Dhabi track for too much run off therefore no chance to use the "entertainment car" to bunch up the field!

[BFC]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

The more I think about this stupid new rule, the ****ing angrier I get - these people have no idea.

Sorry for bringing it up Trev......just take ur heart pills and u will be ok

[Bryan Degerlund]

This ruling is used for both FIA and UK National meetings, HOWEVER cars are not normally waved through until the causing incident is well under control. RC will often ask the SC to slow to ensure the tailenders join the queue without losing too much time.

[Woolley]

I just don't understand all this faffing about with waving cars through. If the cars just slow as soon as the yellows come out you can easily slot the safety car in front of the leader. Next time by, the pits re-open. Couldn't be easier.

You close the pit lane entrance the moment the yellow comes out and remind everyone that they should make sure they have at least one lap's fuel left in the car when they pit, because if not and the yellow is thrown, you're going to run out. Your call.

You can't say it won't work on Australian tracks, because Champ Car operated this system at Surfer's Paradise perfectly well, and the drivers responded properly.

Meanwhile, the possibly seriously injured driver can get immediate attention because the guys trackside know they can attend in safety.

Finally, you remind the drivers that if they obey the local yellows so that the marshals can do their jobs safely, you won't need Safety Cars for most situations, and then they won't have to ***** about 'the Safety Car ruined my race'. Er, no it didn't, you did (collectively) because we can't trust you under yellow flags.

Originally Posted by Razor

F1 has a similar system I think.

And just to reiterate my comment earlier, this isn't an Australian problem, it's the same here and for most countries, and for that I place the blame entirely at the door of F1, who adopted the Safety Car idea but not the rules, simply because they saw American racing as inferior and couldn't let anyone think they hadn't thought of it themselves - which is also why it's called a Safety Car and not the more accurate American description of Pace Car.

[peckstar]

too may people whos minds are already made up and not open to new ideas

oh but wait here comes the personal insults

[Woolley]

Only if you provoke them.

Nothing wrong with a reasoned and knowledgeable suggestion, but I don't recommend telling people who've been there and done it and had the occasional near-miss that they don't know what they're talking about. Which is, of course, how these rules are made up - by people who haven't been there and done it and only think they know what they're talking about. It's always important to look at all possibilities, but sometimes the result of that look is to realise that the best way already exists.

Maybe there is another alternative. As V8s becomes largely street-circuit based, you could always set up a diversion.

[peckstar]

funny thing is Wooley that even if your the only one debating it with reason and knowledge

the old school think its there way or the highway and no other opinion is relevant

[Woolley]

Let me give you my experience and knowledge base re Safety Cars so that you know I do know what I'm talking about.

I have been observer in the SC on an oval (ASCAR, Rockingham UK)
I have flagged for SC at all levels, from club through to FIA international including DTM, LMS, GT.
I have also flagged ALMS (American rules) at Silverstone, and Champ Car on Oval (Rockingham), permanent circuit (Brands Hatch) and temporary circuit (Surfers Paradise)
I have worked as incident marshal for many of the same series other than the American ones at a variety of circuits, and while at Surfers, some of my time was spent trackside as we had sufficient manning levels to stand down from flagging and I wasn't going to miss the opportunity of doing something else in that time.

This isn't old school thinking, blinkered 'I know best', this is pure, hard-nosed coal-face experience. I know a number of other marshals on here have similar experience, and not-surprisingly, similar opinions, and if you are suggesting you're the only one with reason and experience that'll be why you got flamed before. Come up with a good idea, a good debate or a well argued post, I and others will listen and consider. Tell me I'm wrong, I don't know what I'm talking about and only you have the right answer then I'm going to ignore it.

I hope you read that as a constructive point from which to discuss and put as much thought into any answer you have.

[mod hat on]And a reminder to you and to others, I am not going to tolerate personal attacks on or by anyone in this thread as happened before. If they occur, posts will be removed and you may find you are no longer able to post in this thread.[/mod hat off]

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Chatters

I like your confidence! So you can whole-heartedly say to me without a shadow of doubt that in the entire time this "race to the caution" existed there were absolutely no accidents due to drivers going full speed past an accident to get to the finish??

Actually, yes.

[socram]

Which really begs the question, "Wasn't it better before the Safety cars were deployed?"

The reason it was deployed was that drivers ignored double-waved yellows. With modern technology, surely they can impose and enforce a speed limit past an incident?

Safety cars have ruined much of today's racing and yes, I have been a marshal for many, many years too.

Many incidents are relatively minor (car in a sand trap) and as long as the safety crews are protected by race cars travelling slower through THAT sector, I am sure there is a better way than totally stuffing up the race the way they do now.

An incident that used to require double yellows meant that there was a serious problem ON the track. Now we have safety cars deployed when there is a minor hiccup OFF the track.

Many of you will no doubt disagree...

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by socram

Which really begs the question, "Wasn't it better before the Safety cars were deployed?"

The reason it was deployed was that drivers ignored double-waved yellows. With modern technology, surely they can impose and enforce a speed limit past an incident?

Safety cars have ruined much of today's racing and yes, I have been a marshal for many, many years too.

Many incidents are relatively minor (car in a sand trap) and as long as the safety crews are protected by race cars travelling slower through THAT sector, I am sure there is a better way than totally stuffing up the race the way they do now.

An incident that used to require double yellows meant that there was a serious problem ON the track. Now we have safety cars deployed when there is a minor hiccup OFF the track.

Many of you will no doubt disagree...

So you've never been instructed to enter the track in a different sector to clean up debris? Personally i wouldn't be going anywhere near the track until ALL the cars are behind the safety car.....

[Rachel Richards]

Sadly, one of my ex-boyfriend's was only half right....All is forgiven Uncle !

Although, while Uncle's second suggestion seems far better than the first, given the Race Director's penchant for stuffing one Safety Car up, he is better than odds on to screw up two....

P.S. Uncle, if you are out there, answer my PM's !

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

Surely with the technology in V8SC's in regards to telementary we should be able to control the entire field to a safe pace.

Originally Posted by socram

With modern technology, surely they can impose and enforce a speed limit past an incident?

problem being, this same technology (or probably more accurate "the process to apply this technology") was what led to what has become known as the "Phillip Island Fiasco" and subsequent "Barbagallo Fiasco"

[NewsStalker]

Was it the 'process to apply this technology' or the failure of those running the event in Race Control to understand how to implement it?

Seems surprising that the one constant element in all ther years of V8SC safety car issues is the Race Director!

(Its a poor workman that blames his tools...)

[nomad_n]

I know this was used in NZ for a race meeting and I was one of the marshals who was on track cleaning up and we had all the wshing out to say to the drivers that we had marshals out and we still had to jump of the way of the drivers as were going a near race speed to get back to the end of the train....

So from now on myself and other experinced marshals are not going trackside until the race has been brought under control....

[aussiemuscle308]

Originally Posted by socram

With modern technology, surely they can impose and enforce a speed limit past an incident?

They had that at the last go-cart place i was at. as soon as the full course yellow comes on all the carts drop to low power. so, yes i think there is a technology out there to handle it.

[opinion8head]

nomad_n,

You have hit the nail right on the head,if the "safety safari" is damaged who picks up the pieces?...their crewmates.
I know that last century racers had "favourites", Safari crews whose abilities were legendary,who could spot the incidents almost before they happened,and were "on the move" displaying their skills before "race control" had a handle on it.
Talking to drivers who praised the actions of those "talented ones" and hearing of the rescues so ably performed,inspired those drivers to "take care of that crew" just in case it was their 'ass in the sling' next time.

The drivers are there to race and "live with the risks",the marshals stepping out there in harms way... do so to bail them out when things get messy,with cars pranged, inverted,or on fire. Sometimes all three.
They know their jobs and share the risk factors.

Drivers appreciate that when it all turns to custard, help is on its way, and trust that their competition should be giving a wide berth to the pedestrians.... "fitting their sling"... in relative safety.

If "race control" isn't "In control of risk management" the lack of the marshals "immediate response" will be noticed. IMO.

I've heard it myself,"Oh crap,look at that,where the hell are the marshalls?"
Fans want to see rubbing and racing.
With prompt resumption of the racing after "incidents"
No one wants to see "pedestrians wounded"... Do They?

No Marshalls = No racing, we've all observed what occurs when profesional marshals have been sparse and rookies are substituted.
NB...the racers are the first to complain! Then the fans...

Maybe VESA should start,handing down overspeed fines for those who pursue "flying laps under caution" it worked for NASCAR.