[WEC Race] 4 Hours of Shanghai 2019

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

What time does the race start UP tiem?

UK time?

4am

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Chiana

It'll be even worse at Bahrain (and that's double the length of this race) given that even if Toyotas finish 3rd or 4th or whatever, they'll still be receiving further bop penalties on top of this, right?

"currently the two Toyotas’ are pegged back as far as they can be by the success handicap regulations. The maximum handicap has been achieved by a combination of a 40% reduction in hybrid power, 7.5% drop in fuel energy and a 28kg minimum weight increase to the car."

https://racer.com/2019/11/09/insight...mpression=true

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Mike E

"currently the two Toyotas’ are pegged back as far as they can be by the success handicap regulations. The maximum handicap has been achieved by a combination of a 40% reduction in hybrid power, 7.5% drop in fuel energy and a 28kg minimum weight increase to the car."

https://racer.com/2019/11/09/insight...mpression=true

Yes...

The most interesting line in that was this
"The LMP2 cars are so close this year it’s crazy, but I guess it’s down to the tire manufacturers, who have done a great job to step up the performance this season."

I'm sure Vincent can't wait for the spec P2s to get those spec tires now

[TF110]

I don't know what has happened to the Rebellion in terms of pace. I was surprised that they were not faster at Fuji too but attributed that to the wrong tire compound. Now it's playing out again with this race. It might be interesting to see if lmp2 comes into play for a win or affecting those lmp1's.

[chernaudi]

If it rained, LMP2 might contend because their cars would be heavier and have more road holding in the wet, but Toyota might then run away because of their weight/road holding and AWD.

But even in the dry if a LMP1 messes up LMP2s will be all over them. Only pro-am drivers being forced in as part of LMP2 driver line ups (at least one silver or bronze driver in a LMP2 driver line up, remember) will keep LMP2s off the overall podium.

That being said, with the LMP2s being so close, I'd argue that might be how the LMP1 Hypercar rules play out with LMP1 being slowed down and having a similar success BOP formula applied.

However, short of giving LMP1s 800+bhp, what else could the ACO do to try and get some performance parity between Toyota and the LMP1 privateers?

And again, just like with DP vs LMP2 and DPI vs LMP2, that shows the dangers of BOP just to laptimes instead of also factoring in how those times are achieved.

[tux]

Have you ever seen anything as farcical as that? It’s like the Toyota hits the brakes in the middle of the straights. 4 minutes in and I’m out..

[chernaudi]

I know that the race is only a few laps old, but Rebellion fell like a rock according to T&S and the lead Ginetta is 25 seconds in front of both Toyotas. Both Toyotas are nearly 2 seconds off the pace of the lead Ginetta in terms of fastest lap.

Could be Ginetta's for the taking if their driver line ups have the speed.

Update: one Ginetta pitted. Toyotas now 2nd and 3rd, 23 sec. behind.

[chernaudi]

Now it's Ginetta on the back foot. Top three are Toyota, Rebellion, Toyota.

[TF110]

Turns out everyone but the #8 passed the Rebellion before the start line so they ALL get a drive thru, except the lead #8. Crazy happenings right now

[chernaudi]

And the Rebellion is within a couple of seconds of the #8. Ginetta also dropped the ball with sloppy stops it seems when they pitted for a normal stop.

[chernaudi]

I didn't see the start, but either the Rebellion didn't go or just about every other LMP1 really botched the start. I don't know why if that's the case they didn't issue penalties within the first few minutes of the race. IMO, either penalize half the LMP1 field for jumping the start within 10 minutes of the start or just do a full restart like IMSA has been known to do.

More cock ups on the part of the FIA? If so, the ACO and FIA should just let Freitas make the calls.

[chernaudi]

Now Rebellion are running away with it. Again, as with Ginetta their wild card might be driver line up, because, let's face it, Rebellion have at least one pay driver on their squad due to sponsorship issues. Not saying that all pay drivers are bad, but Toyota have a full on all professional line up of the best LMP1 drivers right now that money can buy.

Thing is, Toyota are so crippled especially in top speed that it might not make a big difference.

Goes back to my point about the inherent dangers with applying BOP based solely on lap time vs a analysis on how those times are achieved.

I think Toyota should've been docked hybrid power to the point of running maybe an equivalent to a 2MJ system, or the ACO should've pursued giving the LMP1 privateer teams 900-1000bhp engines, which sadly would've meant that Rebellion for sure would've had to invest in a new engine package.

[deggis]

The highlight of the "race".

[Deleted]

I didn't see it but DSC is praising the P1 battle as exciting and entertaining

Rebellion's my favorite team but this feels like such a hollow victory over politics, not earned or worth all the years waiting. And Hughes de Chaunac happy-crying at the end of Sebring 2011 was understandable, here it seems... Weird. But I'm sure he's emotional man

[TF110]

It was interesting to say the least. The penalties were really harsh for the Toyota. But that's the worst they're going to be.

[Deleted]

Back-to-back headlines on SC365:

Menezes: First Time WEC Had “Real Racing” in “Long Time” - Gustavo Menezes on Rebellion’s breakthrough win, competitive LMP1 field…

Buemi: Success Handicap Produced “Very Artificial” Racing - Sebastien Buemi lashes out on success handicap, raises safety concerns…

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

It was interesting to say the least. The penalties were really harsh for the Toyota. But that's the worst they're going to be.

I thought the penalties were a joke, lol. The other cars didn't do anything wrong. The Rebellion just didn't go. I know what the rules say and I know it's technically correct, but it didn't 'feel' right.

I think this is worst case scenario for Toyota. Harsh BoP and a track where there's not much chance to use the boost. I'd expect that to switch round elsewhere. Sebring will suit them much much better.

I'm not sure the racing can be called "good" since it's completely artificial. However it was at least a race. Ignoring the lapped Toyota since it was a penalty that put him there, it's not THAT big a gap between the Rebellion and Toyota. So if this is what the ACO wanted to see then it's safe to say they finally achieved it. Whether or not that's good or not is purely opinion.

What I will say though, is I think the fans have got very short memories. I'm not saying you have to like it (and I understand if you don't), but some of the reasoning for disliking it is unfair. The Toyota is too slow in a straight line and the classes are overlapping too much. Well, that's exactly what it was like in endurance racing right up until 1999 when the game changed. It was normal for even the best cars to have severe disadvantages, and it was normal for the classes to overlap - a lot more than they currently do.

I'm not saying everyone should like it. I'm not sure I did. But there was a lot of old-school traits showing up. Artificially, but they were there.

I found the race...interesting. Wasn't good? The actual wheel to wheel racing was good. Different strengths and weaknesses was cool. I like when you have vastly differently performing cars, and we seen that.

[HopAlong]

Is the racing anymore artificial than what we have had since 2006 with the diesels and hybrids? during those years you could have built a car with a better aero, chassis, suspension and the best petrol only engine and still be seconds off the pace of the rules advantaged factory cars.

Mind you this success BoP is a load of crap and I don't understand why they can't just try and balance hybrid and non hybrid properly. Surely if they reduced the ICE power and reduced the hybrid power but allowed for it to be used for the whole straight, surely the cars would make lap time in a very similar way.

[chernaudi]

Sadly the problem with LMP1 privateer vs factory diesel and factory hybrid is that even if the factory teams built their cars to the same exact rules, the factory teams would still be just as dominant. Just look at the Audi R8 era when Audi were the only OEM post LM '99 to take LM and LM style endurance racing seriously until 2007.

Same thing has happened in F1 various times where the big money teams have dominated. Just since 2000, first it was Ferrari, then Red Bull, now Mercedes-AMG. The periods where Renault and Brawn were dominant or front runners are the exception rather than the rule, and both took advantage of rules quirks (F1 tire rules in 2005 that hugely benefited Michelin because of their endurance racing success and the large volume diffuser for Brawn).

Rebellion's win, though deserved after years of effort, was brought about by a rules quirk, namely the ACO's experiment with success BOP that they want to use for LMP1 Hypercar next season. I understand that the ACO had to try and do something to make the racing at the front interesting, but as Akrapovic mentioned, fans to tend to have short term memories. An other example was the Audi Sport and Porsche LMP1 pull outs. People where happy that we had three (in reality, two in a half at best) OEMs in LMP1, but that was an exception rather than the rule in road racing since forever in reality. Even the glory days of Group C and IMSA GTP and LM in the late 1990s were exceptions to the rule of having 1-2 OEM teams running in the top class at one time.

[chernaudi]

And another ACO sanctioned race, another DQ or results altering penalty. #51 Ferrari penalized for ride height infringement in post race tech. DQ'd, classified in last place in GTE-Pro/Overall, Porsche takes 1-2 in Pro, AMR's podium streak extended.

Odd how teams know that there's a 99% chance that they'll get excluded over a tech infringement unless it's something very minor, but it happens just about every ACO sanctioned race now, be it WEC or ELMS. And there's calls for the ACO to enforce more lenient penalties, which is the opposite of what fans of say NASCAR were calling for, which was DQ's for tech infringement. Once NASCAR started giving offending teams last place finishes, points and prize money like they were a first lap DNF, such rule bending has largely stopped.

Either the ACO are doing a horrible job officiating this stuff, teams are pushing the rules too far, or both. Especially if a car passes pre-race tech and then flunks post race tech for seemingly no reason and nothing changed on the car during the race.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Either the ACO are doing a horrible job officiating this stuff, teams are pushing the rules too far, or both. Especially if a car passes pre-race tech and then flunks post race tech for seemingly no reason and nothing changed on the car during the race.

When is tech completed? If the team passes at the start of the event and doesn't maintain the requirements with setup changes that's on the team and NOT the officials. It sounds to me like most things teams have been DQ'd for us well within their ability to change and monitor.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by HopAlong

Is the racing anymore artificial than what we have had since 2006 with the diesels and hybrids? during those years you could have built a car with a better aero, chassis, suspension and the best petrol only engine and still be seconds off the pace of the rules advantaged factory cars.

Mind you this success BoP is a load of crap and I don't understand why they can't just try and balance hybrid and non hybrid properly. Surely if they reduced the ICE power and reduced the hybrid power but allowed for it to be used for the whole straight, surely the cars would make lap time in a very similar way.

I think they've done most of what they can in the beginning which is give Toyota hybrid but take away from the engine and add weight. It started this season at 932kg but now has had reduced engine and hybrid even further. They've lost 4 seconds per lap at Shanghai going from qualifying. I think that's too far. What they should do is limit the mj/lap the hybrid puts out, keep the weight on but allow them their engine power back by relaxing the fuel flow. That way they aren't struggling to pass GTE's even. In the race it wasn't so bad, but that's because they mostly overrode the boost to save it for straights to not get blasted past by other prototypes.

[AndyN]

Er... well done Rebellion!

I think..

[Juntos]

Congratulations to the ACO stewards for achieving their own target of DQ a car after the race! Mission accomplished!

Regarding the race itself, I will not make any comment. Just because everyone is behaving like a clown, it doesn’t mean you have to join the circus.

[Badlands99]

'Interesting Race' ....... I think! Yes it was artificial, but isn't most racing in these BOP/Safety Car/FCY days?
Quite enjoyed it really, some good battles up and down the other classes as always ........ just a few more cars in GT Pro would be good. Pleased that Rebellion finally won in a 'straight fight' but I do think that the changes went a little too far. Toyota strategy and professionalism kept them in touch.
Good also to see Ginetta going in the right direction - both finished which was encouraging and they are progressing quickly through the usual new car/new team learning curve. Good effort!
Now to the UK TV coverage ........ Eurosport had the whole race and BT Sport appeared to have the last two hours so was able to see it all. BUT ........ Eurosport commentary was just painful! I can do Mark Cole as he at least has an idea of what is going on, but Tom Gaymor is just painful to listen to and sometimes just doesn't appear to know what is happening. It was nice to turn over to BT and listen to Alan McNish who definitely knows what he is doing.