2014 NASCAR Whelen Euro Series...

[andy97]

My knowledge of the origins of racing on both sides of the Atlantic is slim I admit but the UK had long track oval racing a long time ago at Brooklands. 1907 - 2 years before Indianapolis so maybe the UK "invented" oval racing??? The circuit was later used for the ww2 effort and not returned to racing. Most post ww2 racing in the UK then started to take place on former airfield perimeter tracks with left and right turns.

[R.Lee]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

This thread concerning the differences is totally ignoring-- the simple fact -- the absolute differences in racing history between this side of the pond and over there.
In U.S. there were dozens of makes,= pre-WW II and right after WW II still over one-half dozen makes, who were racing stocks cars in regional ( what NASCAR is now only came about in less than the past twenty years) series or singular races across the country hundreds of time a month or even weekly at times.

I believe I made mention of this, at least with regared to in the U.S., with my statement:

"back in the mid to late 40s, right after then end of World War II, numerous small tracks sprung up all around the Southern United States. Several loosly organized groups sanctioned different races on these small ovals. Many of the drivers that competed at these tracks were drivers that the night before had delievered illegal "moonshine" from the Hills of North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia and North Georgia. There was a potential for organization and along about 1947 or so, a group, headed by a gentleman, named William H.G. (Big Bill) France, met, in a Hotel in Daytona Beach, Florida. That day, NASCAR was formed."

from above.

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

What exists now is a shadow of what once was and really is really a third or fourth cousin to what existed pretty much through the eighties in the U.S..

That can be prety much said about every professional racing series today. All are shadows of their former selves, none of them are what they were, 40, 30, 20, even 10 years ago.

[chunder]

All very interesting

But doesnt change the fact that in Europe we really dont give a chuff about NASCAR and they dont give a chuff about the rest of the world!

[Starfish Primer]

I don´t understand so much argue on the oval racing when the EuroNascar only has 1 oval venue and is a short flat oval.

Running at Lausitz or Rockingham is far beyord the teams current capabilties. They cannot afford managing the fast oval specific setups and possible write offs caused by wrecks at high speed. You have to whatch EuroNascar as stock cars wunning european touring car races.

[Minicross424]

It might be worth mentioning that Brands Hatch running of the American Speedfest in June this year was huge and gave them the biggest crowd except bikes, it even beat touring cars.
They got bits wrong but they got a lot right with the razmatazz and victory lane was a great idea

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by Minicross424

It might be worth mentioning that Brands Hatch running of the American Speedfest in June this year was huge and gave them the biggest crowd except bikes, it even beat touring cars.
They got bits wrong but they got a lot right with the razmatazz and victory lane was a great idea

I agree, Brands Hatch atmosphere was very good. I was surprised with the crowd size, the queue to access the pitlane before the race reached Paddock Hill. Sure they have to improve some aspects but this was the first time as headline event instead of DTM sidelines.

[kurski]

Whelen Euro Series winter tests 2014: 28/2 Magny Cours & 5/3 Brands Hatch

[R59]

Originally Posted by chunder

All very interesting

But doesnt change the fact that in Europe we really dont give a chuff about NASCAR and they dont give a chuff about the rest of the world!

Chunder me ol' mukka! Speak for yourself!

My short foray of racing on the oval at Rockingham showed me that there was interest, and an interest that was growing of it's own accord, slowly, steadily, as Latemodel24 said, people were beginning to realise that it was cheaper to run an ASCAR than a 2L car! 2008 was going to be the stand up and be counted year, but the club decided to assassinate it. They didn't grasp the concept of promoting the genre.

They also thought that the remaining series would maintain it's support, and it didn't. The "token crowd" of about 1500 used to turn up to see the closest thing to NASCAR they could get to see, hear, touch, LIVE in the UK. With ASCAR gone, so did they. Not many people - 1500, paying up to £10 a head to get in. £15,000 isn't a bad weekend's income, which went into the club's coffers - offsetting some of the money they paid the circuit for hire of the venue.

And that's where they (NASCAR) differ from European/FIA type racing.

One is put on as an event, the other is a bunch of chums having a wheeze on and old airfield in their MG's.

This whole "agreement" to keep out of the bigger venues needs looking at. And I agree, running EuroNASCAR on Rockingham, or even Lausitz is going to lead to a fair jump in budgets!! The Canadian Tire spec car that they use may need some beefing up to run on speedways like ours - our ASCARs ran just shy of 180mph on Rockingham between T3 and T4, and ALL the way around Lausitz. Any hits are big ones. And yes, it takes a different skill to drive those tracks, something a lot of road course racers will struggle with.

Mallory Park - great idea, just flatten out the bump - which would be Turn 1 if we used it - as the Eurocar V8's didn't run on it because at speed it would be a wreck a lap! You can't flatten the bump without ruining the Elbow. Unless they decided to expand the track out the back as was mentioned in the discussions over it's future and thus not using the hairpin anymore.

Using the Donington loop was discussed years back too. And when Rockingham was in it's "bloom", even Silverstone (BRDC) looked at building a 1/2mile banked oval.

The UK could do with a decent "long" oval, proper banking, between 1/2 and 1 mile long. But before it could be used properly, lots of politics need sorting. This isn't the USA, and the FIA's henchmen at the MSA could make a lot of trouble if they wanted to!

I'm going to see if I can budget a test session in March. I'd like to join the series, I like the cars - even though they're damned ugly, and I like the concept. I definitely like the awards dinner location and company!!

My old ASCAR is almost finished it's "2007/8 winter rebuild", and it's coming out of the workshop in the spring, in road course spec as per "GTA" spec, and who knows what I might do with it. I had considered shipping it back to the 'States and running it over there, but the old ASA Pro-Tour is long dead, and most of the cars have been converted to road course spec now as they're not eligible for any oval series to my knowledge - due to body and engine mostly.

So, you see, there is interest in Europe for NASCAR - Premier Sports coverage of the entire Cup series and some Trucks, plus Motors TV showing Nationwide, it's gaining more interest all the time. Racers are considering it a career move instead of chasing the impossible dream of F1, where even a top flight F3 drive will cost more than a drive in Nationwide - and the prize money from that makes it well worth doing!

Finally - Tours Speedway - just needs a little more refinement, and I think they'll have it right...like this...

[chunder]

To be ruthless fella

1500 people is what we get every weekend for proper stockcar racing! It simply isnt enough to sustain any interest at a huge venue, unless you charging a lot to get in. And can guarantee a crowd.

15 grand is going to just about cover the wages of the staff present, OK you might get a bit back with trades stalls, but who are you going to attract with 1500 people!

I think truck racing might have a hardcore UK suppprt of 1500 perhaps with a few thousand floaters? And they had a boom period in the 80's whe tens of thousands of people watched, but it soon ebbed away, even internationally.

What you would call proper oval racing it simply isnt sustainable, short ovals are because they are freer, easier to access and do not cost the earth to compete in or run, in comparison.

And as for new tracks, have you tried getting planning permission!!! The thought of even trying to build something new in the UK is almost impossible unless you are miles away from anywhere or in an industrial estate or near an airfield/railway.

Donington's loop is too tight and would be a wreck fest, and Mallory needs all the help it can get right now without taking risks on resurfacing, building new stuff for a formula that will fail.

Not really sure Rockingham was ever in a bloom as you call it, it failed from the very first meeting!! Water seepage, awful stunts that made nearly every formulae race there want to get out as soon as possible like BSB, F3 and CART. How on earth the place is still there is beyond me, and it is largely down to Top Gear! Blokes watching and wanting a go in a posh car and their poor suffering bird buying them a supercar experience! I know, I've been and it was packed to the rafters!! Every one there paid over 100 quid, think about it a minute....

I bet they amde more money that day than any race meeting, and thats is why it has survived. The oval part is a white elephant, just like Lauzitz. Sorry

[andy97]

I'm not an oval racing/ nascar fan really but to be fair, oval racing is alive and well in the uk; it just happens to run on short ovals, not be administered by the MSA/ fia and is called hot rod or stock car racing. It attracts pretty big crowds and drivers even get start money.

Not sure why it doesn't translate to longer circuits really, and Eurocar v6 was pretty popular for a while. Perhaps the uk needs a few feeder series between hot rods and euro nascar? Perhaps the short oval folks should have an annual meeting at Mallory on the oval and Rockingham withbig grids?

[chunder]

They did used to do this Andy, they recently held events at Lydden too

But it jst doesnt seem to work, I know when the F1's ran they were blowing up diffs and engines due to the longer straights, you cant expect guys to buy new stuff just for one offs, so they just didnt support it.

Eurocar was good, was well run, had decent promotion, thats why it worked. And because a lot of people were ex short oval the crowds from there came and watched, I struggle to see how any of this stuff shown here would attract anyone.

the Brands deal was good, but was it to watch racing? I doubt it, it was a party day out thats all

[FIRE]

As part of the new Formula Acceleration 1 series (successor of A1GP) there will be a support class for pickup trucks.

http://acceleration14.com/mw-v6-pickup-series

[tony s]

Originally Posted by FIRE

As part of the new Formula Acceleration 1 series (successor of A1GP) there will be a support class for pickup trucks.

http://acceleration14.com/mw-v6-pickup-series

These are the converted BRL V6 class frome Raceway Venray .

[kipper]

Originally Posted by chunder

And as for new tracks, have you tried getting planning permission!!! The thought of even trying to build something new in the UK is almost impossible unless you are miles away from anywhere or in an industrial estate or near an airfield/railway

I don't dispute it would be difficult; however, there may be scope for an oval to be built within the land owned by an existing circuit, which may alleviate some of the envisaged problems. For example, if the proposed Silverstone oval were to have happened it would have been constructed on the site of the old rallysprint course (which is now occupied by Porsche). Obviously, this option is no longer feasible but there may be scope at other places.

[chunder]

I see your point, though I doubt the area would have been big enough for much more than a short oval at that area, with stands and parking and pit space, it would have had to be very either long and thin like Bristol or short and fat like a Mallory!

Venray is awesome, having been there to watch stock cars, here I can only see perhaps Silverstone seeing a return in investment, Palmer would never take a risk like this, not while he has BSB, too much upheavel and he is busy having as many rounds at his tracks as possible!

Maybe infield at Oulton, but again would mean a lot of work.

No reason who some of the unused Tilke bores like IStnabul, the one in Portugal? But that is far away

[andy97]

My memory (which may be faulty!) was that there were 2 proposals for Silverstone - one involved an oval which actually included one of the corners on the GP circuit, with it built up as a shallow banked corner that could also be used to provide multiple lines for overtaking opportunities on the "road" course as well, and the other involved an oval built up as part of the infield Stowe circuit. Not sure why the plan(s) floundered.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by andy97

My memory (which may be faulty!) was that there were 2 proposals for Silverstone - one involved an oval which actually included one of the corners on the GP circuit, with it built up as a shallow banked corner that could also be used to provide multiple lines for overtaking opportunities on the "road" course as well, and the other involved an oval built up as part of the infield Stowe circuit

I don't think that the introduction of a banked corner (Club) was part of an idea to create an oval. However, there was an embryonic plan in the early to mid 90s to construct a non-banked oval (of sorts) involving Stowe, Club and a link from Abbey to Chapel for IndyCar. This was in addition to the later plan for a short(er) oval on the Rallysprint site.

[chunder]

I would imagine they saw what happened with Rockingham and realised it was a waste of time.

THe only way you could have made this pay was to let the Americans be involved with the track design, they know what works, the MSA made a huge mistake with Rockingham allowing it to be the wrong shape and not enough banking hence it was reasonable for indycars but too long for ASCARS and not banked enough to allow side by side.

That is why the picksups were awesome, coz they were smaller and pretty much flatout and using the draft like they do at Talladega and Daytona in the Cup cars on a much bigger track.

The banking was too shallow, fine in a car that makes downforce, but if they were really serious about stock cars they should have tried harder to get a better track design.

NASCAR either trucks or Nationwide might have made a dent in the downfall, but no chance now, unless someone wants to try and convince NASCAR to come and race in a country that knows nothing about it!

[LateModel24]

Been a little while since I last commented; between work and being back in the UK I've not had internet / time.

R.Lee: unfortunately I'm just a driver, I don't have enough influence . The reality is that circuit promoters today are very savvy and many control their own formulas. Trying to run a series without a full time promoters support is very hard. Then as a visiting series you get issues with car counts, etc. Back in the 40's when racing was still very young circuit owners had to look further afield in order to get drivers and put on events; nowadays the circuits and promoters have set up their own formulas and have fairly full schedules. You need to persuade them that they benefit from having us race on their track.

As for track sizes, nearly all the existing ovals are between 0.2 and 0.25 miles. I have driven an ASCAR around Birmingham Wheels (0.2 miles) and yes, you can do it (just about with a bit of rubbing) but would it be a better show than F2's or hot rods? Probably not. Ideally we want to show the formula off in a good light.

R59, Chunder and others: Yes, ASCAR and Rockingham failed but not simply because "no-one showed up"; I'm sure R59 is aware of various things that occurred behind the scenes too. Other problems with the series are cost; I know from running a late model that the costs between a simple 1/4 mile or 3/10 mile and moving up to a full 1/2 mile increase by an appreciable amount. Going up to a 1.5 mile is going to be a very large increase.

The style of racing is different to what has been more traditional "European" styles; we've tended to lean towards high-tech touring cars rather than more simpler constructed space frame cars.

There are people in the UK and Europe that want our style of racing; the issue is informing them that the races exist and that we have suitable venues to really show it off. My thoughts is that currently we fall in the gap between the two "sides": MSA/FIA and the short circuit crowd. For larger tracks you run afoul of the FIA who really don't get oval racing; and long circuit drivers are too arrogant to even contemplate an oval. The short circuit crowd is very successful without us; BRISCA, hot rods, bangers are all doing well, they don't need us, we need them. If only we had tracks available run by people wanting to work together to grow it rather than support their own little world.

If you want to put a positive spin on things: 10 years ago we had one series (ASCAR), this year we have three: Whelan Euro NASCAR, Camso V8 and Venray's V8 super cup.

[chunder]

Imagine if you got all those people together and ran a decent championship with lots of cars, instead of running fairly small series with odd rounds and a few guys in it.

I do think it's great that people want to do this kind of thing, but how about all of you getting together, instead of tryng to cake your piece of the tiniest cake in motorsport?

Common sense surely?

And sadly you are never going to get along with the short oval crowd here, they are far too greedy and far too interested in their own thing, unless you could sell them the fact that 2000 people are going to show up, then they would drop whatever was on instantly.

[LateModel24]

Some of us have made efforts to try to race together: we had 23 cars out at Venray last year, but that is unlikely to happen this year. Unfortunately it doesn't take many greedy people to kill things, just one or two who decide that their way is best. Splitting race series doesn't help anyone; it confuses spectators and potential entrants don't know which way to go. I know from most of the drivers we never wanted a split but peoples deliberate actions in the last couple have months have meant that not only are there two series but the rules are moving further and further apart.

We have raced at UK ovals such as Ipswich and have brought in crowds that made the circuit owner happy. The problem has been car counts and after only 7 showed up last year I doubt we'll be back at the circuit. In 2011 despite being on the same weekend as BTCC in Snetterton, bangers on the Sunday up the road and another stock car meeting at Kings Lynn we still managed to pull in just shy of 1,000 people at Foxhall Heath. And most of those were in their NASCAR gear.

Common sense in motor racing? Sorry, you'd have better luck looking for the Loch Ness monster or big foot!

[chunder]

To be fair that is the track you want, Ipswich

American car scene is huge in that area, especially southern Essex, os if you are going to make it work IPswich is the best bet, and also the biggest and widest short oval you can use, Hednesford is longer but just too narrow

[LateModel24]

Ipswich is a great little track, I loved racing there (and not just because I got my first win on an oval there!) The evening races also make for a good atmosphere. Sadly the effect of politics has probably hurt our chances of going back although there has been rumour of an effort to get an "American racing" day with Legends, Late Models and Sprint cars.

I think Euro NASCAR should be at Ipswich too before they go to Rockingham.

[chunder]

You would need to promote it very well to get a crowd

The Speedweekend there gets thousands, but is a very traditional event, might be worth trying tog et some stand space or a few cars demo there, might be best bet to get interest

Other than that its a big banger track too, and the Hot Rods love it there, stock cars sadly dont, too big and the speedway shale means its a one liner, racing is dull as dishwater there.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Bring your euro nascar up to the Knockhill tri oval, 3 left turns, a bit of gradient and gravel around the outside of the circuit. Scottish Legends have ran around it on midweek stockies nights.