Audi LMP1 Discussion

[gwyllion]

The ACO is to blame because there is no transition period from the current to the new rules.

With the arrival of smaller engines and a hybrid drive train, a new chassis is almost mandatory. Weight balance can be improved because the engine will be shorter, gearbox can be made lighter because it has to cope with less torque, where to put the batteries, etc.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by pitviper

GT2-R, I'm with you man...though I wouldn't mind if cars looking like that (even a vette) formed the basis for a newer GT1 formula either. Whatever way is fine... I would also be happy if they just accepted the top 10 or 12 cars from the FIA GT1 WC as the GT1 class. Now THAT would be nice...

(forming yet another unpopular opinion, lol)

pit

Appreciating that the top 10 or 12 FIA GT1 cars were certainly welcomed to enter the LMS, or LM this year... and chose not to. The ACO gave them the opportunity, and they chose not to take it. They'll likely be legislated from future participation now.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The ACO is to blame because there is no transition period from the current to the new rules.

With the arrival of smaller engines and a hybrid drive train, a new chassis is almost mandatory. Weight balance can be improved because the engine will be shorter, gearbox can be made lighter because it has to cope with less torque, where to put the batteries, etc.

That maybe true for the diesels but the Lola's etc. are already designed for P1/P2.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Appreciating that the top 10 or 12 FIA GT1 cars were certainly welcomed to enter the LMS, or LM this year... and chose not to. The ACO gave them the opportunity, and they chose not to take it. They'll likely be legislated from future participation now.

Personally I think the only chance GT1 had of re-establishing itself as Le Mans was if Nissan made a big effort this year due to being the only major manufactuer with a new reg car.

I think there'd actually be more interest from Nissan enthusiats in seeing a GT2 GT-R with the V6 Turbo, even if it was RWD.

[gwyllion]

From an interview with Ralf Jüttner:

As if the task of getting through the 24 Hours of Le Mans wasn’t enough, Jüttner says work on their next prototype, the R18, has been running concurrently with their preparation for this weekend’s race.

“That’s definitely on the agenda already. So the work is already on its way, let's put it like this. And it's not a secret that the people are in place and the people are thinking and the people are making their mind up and they have some rough ideas already about how the rules should look like next year. So it's not completely fixed but it's not like the ACO hasn't come up with something already where the direction goes. So the people are thinking about it, they are having ideas, they are putting work together, but the real amount of money is spent once we start building parts. And that has not yet started, of course. But if you wait with the whole thing until the rule makers come up then you are not running before very late in 2011!”

source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...sday-notebook/

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by GT2-R

I hope, in the long run, we'll see the Le Mans EVO plans again. Maybe Audi/Porsche/Peugeot/Aston Martin are interested in cars like this Corvette LMP1 render the ACO showed few years ago... Probably it's just daydreaming but still .

Hope not!
Long Live to Le Mans Prototype Racing!

There is enough GT cars already...

[deggis]

Hint on coupe? http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84316

(Header refers to R15+)

[CTD]

Originally Posted by deggis

Hint on coupe? http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84316

(Header refers to R15+)

Audi has said several times it will be an open car.

[gwyllion]

Juttner clearly acknowlegdes that coupes have big aero advantage at Le Mans. I have the impression that Audi would have build a closed car for 2009-2010, if they had known earlier that the pitstop would be slowed down. The development of the R15 had progressed too far in order to make such radical change.

[gwyllion]

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-4630.html has an interview with Dr. Ullrich.

What I can tell you is that the name will be R18, R17 being the name of the future A4 DTM and R16 that of the R8 LMS. The regulation will be published tomorrow, but we already know the main points. We are just awaiting the details. I can not tell you if the car is open or closed because it is currently only in early design phase. Given the current regulations, a closed car would be much better but the decision has not yet been taken.

[Martin90]

Audi considering closed-top car

Thursday, June 17th 2010, 08:52 GMT
Le Mans winner Audi is considering a coupe body shape for its next LMP1 car, this week's AUTOSPORT magazine reveals.
Audi Sport boss Wolfgang Ullrich has hinted that he no longer considers it viable to return to the Le Mans 24 Hours with a open-top car.
His comments suggest that the R18 built to the new-for-2011 rulebook will follow Peugeot's lead and be a coupe.
Ullrich explained that one of the advantages of an open car had been during pitstops. The change in sporting rules slowed tyre changes at the start of last season has removed that.
"If you take pure performance, it is clear that the efficiency of a closed car is much better," he said. "One of the advantages of an open car has now been removed, so we must look at both concepts.
"We pushed hard with the ACO for the rulebook to give concepts the same chance, but this does not seem to be the case."

source

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Martin90

Audi considering closed-top car

Thursday, June 17th 2010, 08:52 GMT
Le Mans winner Audi is considering a coupe body shape for its next LMP1 car, this week's AUTOSPORT magazine reveals.
Audi Sport boss Wolfgang Ullrich has hinted that he no longer considers it viable to return to the Le Mans 24 Hours with a open-top car.
His comments suggest that the R18 built to the new-for-2011 rulebook will follow Peugeot's lead and be a coupe.
Ullrich explained that one of the advantages of an open car had been during pitstops. The change in sporting rules slowed tyre changes at the start of last season has removed that.
"If you take pure performance, it is clear that the efficiency of a closed car is much better," he said. "One of the advantages of an open car has now been removed, so we must look at both concepts.
"We pushed hard with the ACO for the rulebook to give concepts the same chance, but this does not seem to be the case."

source

Wont happened.
In fact both AMR and Peugeot is looking at Open cars as the increased inlet for Coupes has been removed.

[gwyllion]

I would not just to conclusions. The temperature cockpit rules will be relaxed. According to Bruno Farmin it might be possible to achieve them without air conditioning system.

With the smaller engines, the extra weight of a coupe is no longer an issue. The Lola B09/80 proves that you can build a LMP2 coupe that weighs 825 kg.

According to http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept09.html the better aero of a coupe is worth 5 km/h in top speed.

[Lola T70]

With less power for 2011 then aero efficiency is even more relevant so I would not be surprised to see a closed car to gain straight-line speed.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

With less power for 2011 then aero efficiency is even more relevant so I would not be surprised to see a closed car to gain straight-line speed.

That is effective what Mike said as well

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

So with the fundamental change in power levels the closed top car becomes really the only route I think. Well, at least from an aerodynamic standpoint.

[skeeskirrt]

How does the fin play into the coupe v open-top decision?

[merlot brougham]

Originally Posted by skeeskirrt

How does the fin play into the coupe v open-top decision?

I wouldn't imagine that it would. Since the regs require a certain height to the car and a roll-over hoop structure behind the driver the cars are treated the same from that point rearward. Prototypes taking flight is possible with either a closed or open car so as a safety measure it should be required regardless.

[Danny_GT2]

It ain't diesel, according to eurosport!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Danny_GT2

It ain't diesel, according to eurosport!

I believe Sam Collins of Racecar Engineering is often better informed: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...prototype.html

However, I can imagine that Ulrich Baretzky would like build an engine based on his Global Racing Engine concept. That would mean a 2.0 liter 4 cilinder TFSI, perhaps even with a VTG turbo.

[HORNDAWG]

IF a 2.0L happens to be used, I would imagine it with 2 VGTs.







L.P.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

IF a 2.0L happens to be used, I would imagine it with 2 VGTs.

Not allowed. At least in the current LMP2 engine rules which are supposed to become the LMP1 2011 engine rules:

5.1.2 – displacement limit
b/Turbo/Supercharged engines (gasoline): 2000 cm3 (4) 6 cyl. maximum
...
(4) Only one single stage charging device and air/air and/orair/water heat exchanger.
...
5.2.2 - Charging devices incorporating ceramic components, variable diameter inlets and adjustable internal vanes are forbidden. Adjustable internal vanes fixed on the turbine housing are permitted.

Rule 5.2.2 is the one that allows variable turbine geometry. I am not sure that VTG turbos can be done on a petrol engine without ceramic components.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am not sure that VTG turbos can be done on a petrol engine without ceramic components.

Three words: Porsche 997 Turbo.

And it's now in the VW/Audi family, so the technology is very very definitely available.

[HORNDAWG]

n.m.



L.P.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Three words: Porsche 997 Turbo.

... which uses "temperature-resistant materials derived from aerospace technology". It is not clear whether BorgWarner and Porsche use a ceramic material or some special alloy. Hence my remark.

However, the R15+ V10 TDI does use a VTG turbo that can withstand temperatures about 1000°C and is within the current ACO rules. I don't know if that is enough for a race petrol engine.

[Victor_RO]

I was trying to say that, because of that, Audi have access to the petrol VTG technology, so adapting it to a racing engine shouldn't be too hard with the concentration of brains in that technical squad.