How to solve the Indycar/Champ Car situation, letter published on Kirby's website

[fomoco]

One problem with any move on a united OW series. TG. how come his great statement we will never race on tracks etc, When Teams and others tried to broker a united dseries, it was TG, the stumbling block. The only way there will be a single OW series is if Tony turns up his toes.
USA's answer to Uncle Bernie E. - I will control everything

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Nippon - this is a spec series with two engine choices - Honda or Toyota, thats it - Nissan will be a third engine choice when the new car appears

Thanks Sam - wasn't totally clear on FN but thought there were options at least.

[climb]

Originally Posted by Mystery

But have monomake series become the standard??

One makes
GP2 (Asia), CCWS, IRL, A1, WSR

Multi-makes
F1, (A)LMS, Grand Am, F3, Touring Cars, GTs, F Nippon, Nascar (sort of)

we're talking about OW racing, and considering F3 as a quasi-monomake, we're bound to conclude that monomake in OW racing is the standard (FNippon have a monomake chassis)

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Yes I'd have to agree. It just kills the interest seeing the same exact cars on the grid whatever the series. ....

Understandable point, tho seeing good drivers team regularly (actually or supposedly) beaten by mediocre ones because of a worse package is not good as well.

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by fomoco

One problem with any move on a united OW series. TG. how come his great statement we will never race on tracks etc, When Teams and others tried to broker a united dseries, it was TG, the stumbling block. The only way there will be a single OW series is if Tony turns up his toes.
USA's answer to Uncle Bernie E. - I will control everything

unfortunateley your rant about Tony George gets nobody nowhere. the only sensible thing is for both series to merge, become the indy car series once again like it was in 1995 and before. the grid of teams and drivers would be awesome, and it would be big news in the states, that would bring it alot of attention towards it, which would probably make it quite sucessful again, and we would all have a great series to wtahc, instead of two series fighting it out, killing each other.

i would prefer however not to see the IRL cars, as they are dangerous, ugly, and do not perform. i dont think however we should see the DP01 either, as it doesnt look suited for oval racing, maybe on road corses, but i also thing that if there was a merge we should go back to the real indy cars of the time, and bring in a new updated indy car.

Chassis makers can then get invloved from then on, eg lola, dallara, raynard and so on.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Kieran20

unfortunateley your rant about Tony George gets nobody nowhere. the only sensible thing is for both series to merge, become the indy car series once again like it was in 1995 and before. the grid of teams and drivers would be awesome, and it would be big news in the states, that would bring it alot of attention towards it, which would probably make it quite sucessful again, and we would all have a great series to wtahc, instead of two series fighting it out, killing each other.

One must know the problem before fixing it. In regards to a strong single series, if one examines history, one finds the person in the middle of the whole mess is tony george.

I think it's going to take more than just a merge and everything will be dandy again. Using the irl model for business, if it worked they would be way down the road and quite successful and all this merge talk would be nonexistent.

[Purist]

One thing that would make sense is to have a few individuals more or less without a vested interest in any particular parties as board members with veto power: people like Mario Andretti and Dan Gurney.

My idea for a BoD would have a dozen or so members. Have a man like Cotman heading the new sanction and on the board. Then have Gurney and Andretti with him. For the teams, have two representatives for the larger teams, and two for the smaller ones. Have three independent track owners/operators on the board (TG doesn't get veto power). Finally, have a representative for the chassis builders and one for the engine suppliers. Aside from the first three people mentioned (Cotman, Andretti, Gurney), I would give veto power to Penske for the larger teams, Dale Coyne for the smaller teams, and one of the other two independent track owners/operators. Thus, everyone of consequence has a voice at the table, but the more overbearing parties can be held in check.

[fieldodreams79]

i agree...one "person" being the problem and one "person" can also be the solution...too bad something that it is a VERY common problem is what caused it to begin with; EGO. but what would racing be without it.

i like what Mr. Strong has said; he is a fan's fan and most people, like myself, who like ALL forms of motor racing (not just open wheel), would agree with him...however, until the people with the gold get off there high horses, i believe we are all left to dream about "what if?"

while we are dreaming, i'd like to see the Trans Am series in support of all the road races that Mr. Strong has suggested; bring it back, damnit! Not seeing open wheelers at Brands like someone else has, who doesn't think it's a good idea, i know that the TA would put on one hellava show there.

i dunno, until the merger occurs, i'll stick with the ALMS, and stockcars that have and always will have a home in my backyard. i'd have to travel too far to see races elsewhere....unless the irl goes back to Atlanta Motor Speedway. i feel like such a traitor going to the last irl race there some years back....birthday gift...should i have said no???

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Purist

One thing that would make sense is to have a few individuals more or less without a vested interest in any particular parties as board members with veto power: people like Mario Andretti and Dan Gurney.

My idea for a BoD would have a dozen or so members. Have a man like Cotman heading the new sanction and on the board. Then have Gurney and Andretti with him. For the teams, have two representatives for the larger teams, and two for the smaller ones. Have three independent track owners/operators on the board (TG doesn't get veto power). Finally, have a representative for the chassis builders and one for the engine suppliers. Aside from the first three people mentioned (Cotman, Andretti, Gurney), I would give veto power to Penske for the larger teams, Dale Coyne for the smaller teams, and one of the other two independent track owners/operators. Thus, everyone of consequence has a voice at the table, but the more overbearing parties can be held in check.

Makes sense to me. I may not agree to the letter but it's a great start.

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by Kieran20

unfortunateley your rant about Tony George gets nobody nowhere. the only sensible thing is for both series to merge, become the indy car series once again like it was in 1995 and before. the grid of teams and drivers would be awesome, and it would be big news in the states, that would bring it alot of attention towards it, which would probably make it quite sucessful again, and we would all have a great series to wtahc, instead of two series fighting it out, killing each other.

i would prefer however not to see the IRL cars, as they are dangerous, ugly, and do not perform. i dont think however we should see the DP01 either, as it doesnt look suited for oval racing, maybe on road corses, but i also thing that if there was a merge we should go back to the real indy cars of the time, and bring in a new updated indy car.

Chassis makers can then get invloved from then on, eg lola, dallara, raynard and so on.

Kerian I agree with you, but can the USA based fans put enough presure on one person to accept this? He wants to control everithing.
Bring back CART the way it was. Take it to the world instead of Bernis circus. If it is a World series, then there are more places than North America. Here hope of a unified O/W series

[JohnSSC]

Bring back CART "the way it was?" The way it was was how we got here in the first place! Heck, while we are at it, bring back: Can-Am, Trans Am, IMSA RS, Camel GT, F5000 and the USAC Championship Trail - all the way they were...

Question: We can list Fantasy Boards of Directors and Schedules and Chassis/engine choices all we want. What is in it for say, Dan Gurney to even get involved? Or Mario? What is the actual point for the rest of it?

Their silence lately has been deafening. Maybe they are no longer stuck in 1994 and have moved on with their lives and their professions.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Heck, while we are at it, bring back: Can-Am, Trans Am, IMSA RS, Camel GT, F5000 and the USAC Championship Trail - all the way they were...

let's make it happ'n, cap'n....

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Question: We can list Fantasy Boards of Directors and Schedules and Chassis/engine choices all we want. What is in it for say, Dan Gurney to even get involved? Or Mario? What is the actual point for the rest of it?

Their silence lately has been deafening. Maybe they are no longer stuck in 1994 and have moved on with their lives and their professions.

It's obvious from the numbers most people have given up and moved on. It will not be long before a generation becomes of age that was born when this whole mess started.

[luke]

Well I'd say that most people who still follow AOWR are fans after the split and in the last few years...Most particularly in the States have given up since the split. The TV ratings and attendance for both series and none of the media outside racing caring shows this.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It's obvious from the numbers most people have given up and moved on. It will not be long before a generation becomes of age that was born when this whole mess started.

For once we agree.

Neither of my kids can give a rat's patoot about CIRCL. My oldest watches F1, the youngest wants to know what the difference is between the 2 series...

At least neither of them like NASCAR.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

At least neither of them like NASCAR.

that's too bad seeing that it may be the only NA racing series with decent drivers in the next couple of years.

[Teretonga]

Both series have plusses and minuses.
Stating something completely separate and independent but using the best from both would be the ultimate and probably the only effective way forward.

However the present egos and investments would get in the way.
So it isn't likely to work very well is it?

If another body (notIRL or CCWS) set up an alternative series but that would require huge investment, vision and the collapse of both the other two....

Looking at what they have got:
CCWS.
Panoz chassis, Cosworth engines (better than Honda?), a few major events like Long Beach, Cleveland, Road America, Laguna Seca, Surfers Paradise, Toronto, Edmonton.
Formula Atlantic.
Biggest negative is the unsuitability of the chassis on ovals.

IRL.
Dallara chassis (Ugly?) Honda engines (are Honda ready to walk away?).
Indy 500, Kansas, Watkins Glen, St Petersburg, Texas etc
IPS

Solution?
Dallara chassis (2 years until a new one is produced). Cosworth engine.
20 race series. 8 ovals-8 road courses (incl. Edmonton, Cleveland, Watkins Glen, Laguna Seca, Road America) 4 streets (St Pete's, Surfers, Long Beach, Toronto)
TG and KK retain ownership of assests but submit to an independent board to run the combined series.

IPS and Formula Atlantic? Both retained by their owners. IPS sets up oval series plus four others. Formula Atlantic sets up road series of similar number of events. Some may be double headers, there my be one or two events where both classes run.

The ego's and assets are in the way. There is no way forward other than an independent commissioner or it will be last man standing...

[Hazard]

Re: the engine question

Honda vs. Cosworth.

The pro of Cossie, well, the series own it - so it's a safe and steady supply.

THe pro of Honda, is the con of Cosworth - Honda pay for themselves, Cosworth costs the management a heck of a lot of money - but if Honda walk away they're screwed (the con of Honda).

And it'd be impossible to keep Cosworth as a backup, as now without Champcar they're doing next to nothing - it couldn't survive as a business - they've already got the most powerful (and unreliable) F1 V8 engine already in the freezer.

The best solution is to get another manufacter interested in the merger, and bring someone else in. Ford are unlikely to back given their financial situation - one option could be for someone to badge those Cosworths of course, and since Chevrolet have done it before, maybe they would again.

[duke_toaster]

Here's my personal view on the way forward.

New championship called International Indycar Championship.

Ugly (but oval suitable) IRL Dallara chassis with a IRL engine until a joint specification car can be brought in for 2010. Unless an oval suitable version of the DP01 can be made. Change to a non-spec system but with heavily controlled rules.

Sixteen round championship, four oval races (Indy, Texas and two others), three street circuits (St Pete, Surfer's and Long Beach), nine road courses (Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Watkins Glen and six others).

Merge IPS and Atlantic to become IndyCars2 using Atlantic cars that are modified to be suitable for ovals. If that can't be done, they'll skip the ovals (apart from Indy where they can run on the road course) until a new car can be developed.

IC2 could have IC2-Europe and IC2-Pacific if needed.

[icemachine]

My dream for a merged championship, 21 race season, 8 Oval, 7 Road and 6 streets/airports

Ovals - Indy, Michigan, Homestead, Milwaukee, Fontana,Chicagoland, Rockingham, Motegi
Road - Road America, Laguna Seca, Mont Tremblant, Watkins Glen, Portland, Mexico City, Zolder
Street - Long Beach, Houston, Cleveland, Toronto, Edmonton, Surfers Paradise

[CaptainRandom]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Biggest negative is the unsuitability of the chassis on

Actually, I recall that the chasis being suitable for oval racing was a requirement laid out to Panoz by the CCWS.

[For example, the DP01 has a more upright seating position than the old Lola (as does the IRL Dallara) to reduce the chance of back injuries when the car goes backwards into a wall, which is a common type of crash in oval racing. (Since the spine is oriented perpendicular to the wall, there should be much much less compressive stress)]

Of course, the Panoz hasn't been raced on an oval because CCWS dropped them from the calendar. But I think that was a money/business issue and not a car issue.

At the end of the day though, the Panoz is lighter, and the Dallara is proven on ovals, so I'm not sure that this information would really change your point anyways. Just mentioning what I remember

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Here's my personal view on the way forward.

New championship called International Indycar Championship.

Already won't happen. FIA wouldn't allow that title. It'd have to be 'series'.

Anyway - Indycar World Series is what is was before the split, I'm sure for nostalgia reasons if they merged that's what it'd be called.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

One must know the problem before fixing it. In regards to a strong single series, if one examines history, one finds the person in the middle of the whole mess is tony george.

....

Your steady getting-back-to-Adam-and-Eve approach, ms, isn't very helpful in bringing things forward; ok we know you have a personal problem with TG, but if AOWR want to walk a step further they have to start from the present situation, like it or not, and the present situation TG has a central position, like it or not.

[blaarg]

Why would anyone believe that Tony George should be the central character of any merged series? If anything it should be independently run for a board of directors. Sure, Tony can be on the BOD, however I wouldn't allow him to be involved in the day to day running of the sport, period.

[climb]

When I say that TG has a central position, I don't mean that everything must belong to him; I just mean that trying to rebuild AOWR without him (and by consequent without Indy500) has proven a nonsense.

He owns Indy500 and we all know where the "nothing sacred about Indy" principle has brought to.