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21 Oct 2006, 14:56 (Ref:1744152) | #26 | |
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Seems to be the case.
I could quite easily see teams being given the option to use restricors or electronic limiting once the system is perfected. |
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21 Oct 2006, 15:20 (Ref:1744163) | #27 | ||
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GT1 cars like the Corvette and DBR9 get up to speed through the Mulsanne and can keep up with P1 if unrestricted, but it's definitely in the corners where the P1's have the advantage, with all the downforce, and less weight.
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21 Oct 2006, 15:21 (Ref:1744164) | #28 | |||
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How fast you go, depends entirely on how much money you want to spend before the laws of physics make it a dead-end street. If the car is entirely limited electronically, unless you hire a computer hacker to out and out cheat, you are screwed, you will get no more power than the electronics say you can. Both systems will NOT be allowed because the big buck boy will spend whatever it takes to stay in front, if they care enough to build a car, and the boys with the cheaper electronic cars will stay back, way back, in the also ran area. Bob |
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21 Oct 2006, 15:26 (Ref:1744167) | #29 | |||
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If they also take the restrictors off, even with the huge HP increase they will get nowhere near the P class due to much lower cornering speed, and the skinny tires they must use. Add to that it would be far more entertaining to watch the drivers to the balancing act between applying power and not over driving the tires. Bob |
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21 Oct 2006, 20:40 (Ref:1744346) | #30 | |||
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Not every team uses the same electronic system. as in the Bosch Engine Managment system. a few electronic systems can have multiple programs so the driver can just flip a switch or push a button to have a higher or lower out put. Now they can only have a control of the fuel delevery, from "full lean to full rich" |
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21 Oct 2006, 20:44 (Ref:1744347) | #31 | ||
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With many differnt cars, and power plants if gives so many differnt varriables to reach the same HP output.
The scrutineers are high technical ppl so they can catch every possible form of cheating there is. the idea of "if it does not say it is illegal" they do it is not possible. If it is not written down in the rules then it is illegal. Look at all the discussions and ideas here on the forum. Do we all agree on the same thing?? I bloody hope not, they it would not be any fun |
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21 Oct 2006, 21:01 (Ref:1744351) | #32 | |||
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22 Oct 2006, 19:56 (Ref:1745364) | #33 | |||
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Winning is not going the fastest, it is going as slow as possible, AND staying in front of all other competiters when crossing the finish line. |
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22 Oct 2006, 20:58 (Ref:1745444) | #34 | |||
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VBM - Thevenir & Bornhauser takes the third place in the second race this week-end at Magny-Cours in the French GT Series with the low budget F550 of CareRacing-Prodrive.
http://www.ffsa.org/res_circuit.php?id=419 Quote:
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22 Oct 2006, 23:36 (Ref:1745583) | #35 | ||
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They complained about poor power from the new customer Ferrari engine at the end of the race. How can it lack power if it runs unrestricted and is only limited through the electronics? Just turn the button and you get the power you feel you need, why restrict it to an inferior value?
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23 Oct 2006, 18:43 (Ref:1746599) | #36 | ||
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Patrick BORNHAUSER (Ferrari 550 Maranello, VBM), 3ème : « La réputation de la Ferrari n’est plus Ã* faire. Elle a un très bon châssis, des freins supers, et le moteur, qui est expérimental, est encore perfectible, car il lui manque un peu de puissance pour rivaliser. Nous ne savons pas de quoi demain sera fait, on va regarder les opportunités, mais les Saleen me font peur. Affaire Ã* suivre ! »
In English: Bornhauser speaks about the F550 Low Budget: Very good chassis, great brakes, and an engine who is experimentel and still can be improve to more speed. But he's missing the power for battling with the Saleen and the C6-R. Resolution: all vieuws to next year are still open, they dont say they will buy the F550, it's a possibility but they will see if there are other choses. |
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1 Nov 2006, 18:15 (Ref:1755501) | #37 | ||
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Bin the air restrictors
The current air restrictor regulations in FIA and ACO GT regs are severally restricting the grids especially in National GT championships running to FIA GT2 regs like in the UK.
Air restrictors massively increase the cost of building engines and massively reduce the rebuild intervals. For example LS7 engine GT3 spec stock engine with dry sump suitable for racing approx £12k and will probably run full season without rebuild. LS7 GT2 engine build to run with air restrictors £35K+ life approx 25hrs. Most road cars that GT2 race cars are based on can produce approx 400bhp and with very few changes will produce the 450bhp needed for GT2. Yet manufacturers are having to spend tens of thousands of pounds to make these engine work with air restrictors. These engines needing high compression ratios etc and hours of dyno time to regain the lost BHP due to the restrictors. These engines are working much harder than they need to. There are so many ways of controlling the power of GT cars with out air restrictors. Here are a few options. All GT cars in FIA and ACO events have to be homologated. Could for example the Porsche 996RSR's not all be supplied with the same homologated ecu with a homologated map with the ecu locked. A spare ecu is supplied to the FIA ACO that has the homologated map on so if there is any suspicion of tampering with the ecu the organisers just put the spare unit in the car. Another option, Horsepower =(torque x rpm)/5252 so all GT cars must have fitted driveshaft or prop shaft torque sensors, you know what the engine rpm is add a simple data logger and bingo you have power info on all cars to check that they are running to the required power. I hope that the FIA/ACO are involved with or at least keeping an eye on the Care Racing/Prodrive project this is the sort of thing that GT racing so desperately needs. Comments please!!!! Henry |
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1 Nov 2006, 18:51 (Ref:1755530) | #38 | |||
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Racing is about what a car is capable of, not reducing one make, so another lessor one can catch up without improving its product. There are ways of slowing the cars down without artificial restriction: eliminate wings, make them run at a weight to displacement or engine type, production trannies and gear ratios only, etc. Bob |
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13 Nov 2006, 17:08 (Ref:1765128) | #39 | ||
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How they doing it?
Does anyone know exactly how the Care Racing 550 are controlling engine power with out the air restrictors? They say it is electronically done but that could mean several ways. Is it through special ecu or locked ecu etc? Any one know?
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13 Nov 2006, 17:13 (Ref:1765138) | #40 | ||
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I imagine it's the mapping of the ECU. Injection timing, mxtures...etc
The car is entred for the FIA GT race at Dubai next week. |
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13 Nov 2006, 17:41 (Ref:1765171) | #41 | ||
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I think it is more then ECU restriction. Ferrari engines are strong but unreliable. I would bet Prodrive is making differnt parts, stronger and more reliable construction of the 550 engine, first. Then a differnt ECU contoler.
ProDrive is building the engines for Care-Racing's Ferrari 550 customer program |
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13 Nov 2006, 17:43 (Ref:1765176) | #42 | ||
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Yes that will be how they control the power but how are they going to stop teams from changing the mapping etc. Are they non reprogrammable ecu's once set they cant be changed? What make of ECU are they running?
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15 Nov 2006, 20:54 (Ref:1767166) | #43 | ||
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(How the do you link to an exact post again?) I think we share some opinions... However, I have a feeling that I would hate to discuss politics with you But seriously, there are some arguments against making the cars too production based. Mandatory production boxes, suspension etc. could keep some interesting cars (and engines) from being competitive. After all, the design requirements for a racecar and a roadcar are quite different in some ways. When pushed too far, these sort of regs could mean that manufacturers need to build a batch of totally impractical homologation specials to come up with a competitive car. I think the point of gt racing is, in part, to have a good variety of roadgoing models that qualify for a 'real sportscar' racing against each other on a fairly equal basis (NOT to make all different models run at exactly the same pace!!! ). So some tinkering with track performance is inevitable, IMO. In that light, wings for example can be a good equalizer between different types of body shape, drivetrain layout etc. Good weight to displacement rules seem valid to me too. Can't quite think of any objections to that, really... But air restrictors... You'd think that any idiot with some interest in motorsport could have foreseen that that would lead to very specialized and very pointless designs, for atmospheric engines at least. For protos the situation is even more absurd IMO, can't think of a good reason why the rulemakers would want bigger engines with less power in those. Electronic restrictions make more sense then. You probably could make a watertight system that restricts power output to a specific value. No doubt that AM and GM would still spend -illions to eke out a little more performance, but 650 bhp is still 650 bhp. Weren't the restrictors originally meant to keep down revs? Well, is there any better way to do that than by electronics? And last but not least, I can imagine that a free breathing engine has onehellofalotofan easier time to make 650 bhp than one with a cork in it. |
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16 Nov 2006, 04:00 (Ref:1767326) | #44 | ||||
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The rules as now are on the limit, of not being a lie, but it still makes no sense to limit HP and let them gain speed, in the corners with aero add-ons. One can be required to use the production system and still improve the handling by hundreds of percentl It takes more talent, but not one damn red-cent more money, than what they are doing now. It is the lax regulations, that allow big dollars to do serious adjustments, to a suspension, that has little, if any, to do with the prod. unit, that also hurts a privateer. If they were req. to use the same basic stock based system, especially pick-up points, of the original, you would be surprised just how different a theoretically similar set-up can get, but there would be nothing a privateer would not know probably could be tried. Quote:
How soon an engine loses power,is determined by cubic dollars. IF an cheat free elect. system was used, Detroit, and probaly more, would show the IMSA nothing but buttocks and elbows. Only a fool allows another to jam the one into a sardine can. Wings for me are a maybe yes, maybe no thing, but get rid of the pointless rear diffuser. Bob |
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16 Nov 2006, 07:17 (Ref:1767396) | #45 | |||
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Wings ..... Maybe ? Im glad your not in charge of sportscar racing or we would all be watching supertouring mate |
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16 Nov 2006, 08:58 (Ref:1767462) | #46 | |||
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They can go just as quickly without the diffusers, or wings, it justs takes a more talented or determined driver to do so. Bob |
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16 Nov 2006, 09:46 (Ref:1767509) | #47 | |||
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Bob are you serious? If so i am worried that you are even posting on this thread. Last edited by ChironWSC; 16 Nov 2006 at 09:49. |
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16 Nov 2006, 09:50 (Ref:1767516) | #48 | ||
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No soup for you! |
16 Nov 2006, 10:03 (Ref:1767526) | #49 | |||
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I cant believe i am even having this conversation about this!!! I am sure if you tell Renault F1 and Alonso that if he is a more determined driver he will go just as fast without the wings on his car he will at you. |
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16 Nov 2006, 10:23 (Ref:1767549) | #50 | |||
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