Brabham BT16

[allenbrown]

Good list Chris.

John Watson is described by Autosport as having a 1.6 Brabham twin cam in 1967 and I had assumed that it was his 1968 car, i.e. F2-19-65. Your list says it wasn't. Any idea what Watson had in 1967?

I also have Robin Darlington in a Brabham at Llandow early in 1966 described as "ex-Rawlinson" which I took to mean "ex-Rollinson" so last season's all conquering F2 BT16-SCA [F2-17-65]? Autosport 15 Apr 1966 p592.

F2-16-65 would have ceased to exist after Adam Wyllie's accident at Dunboyne 17 Jul 1965. Didn't F2-23-65 go to Lythgoe for Anderson to drive to replace it?

John Bridges was said to have a BT16 twin cam late 1965 but this is presumably a misdescription of his regular BT14.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Denis has reminded me () that he sent me a spec sheet on these cars earlier this year. The main differences are:

BT16 - SCA, Hewland Mk 7, 1300 series driveshafts, 18 gallons held in two side tanks

BT15 - MAE (or Holbay R65), Hewland Mk 6, 1100 series driveshafts, 7 gallon seat tank

BT14 - twin cam, Hewland Mk IV (optional Mk 5), 1300 series driveshafts, 7 gallon seat tank

Wheels and chassis dimensions are the same. Simon has volunteered (I think that's the right word!) to help me recognise the minor chasis differences around the rear but he's confident that the frames had to be made slightly differently by AM.

These details are also on the other two relevant threads.

Allen

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

BT16 - SCA, Hewland Mk 7, 1300 series driveshafts, 18 gallons held in two side tanks

Allen

As described in my prior lengthily post, F2-23-65 had both tanks when I bought it. The right hand tank wrapped over the top between the dash hoop and the pedals if I remember correctly. The left tank went down the side and behind the seat. It had a MK5 but that likely replaced the MK7 when the twin cam was installed. I have a bunch of pictures somewhere. I will dig them up and scan them if they are of interest.

Bob

[Denis Lupton]

Chris
You mentioned in the BT15 thread, Cliff Haworth,an American driver.
He purchased a BT16, F2-18-65,delivered thursday,June11,1965,with MAE
Cosworth engine. At the time he was working at MRD (no wages) to learn
about the car,s. First event,Roskilde-Denmark- June/11/65.Also,the first time he drove the car.
Cheers Denis

[Denis Lupton]

Apologies for wrong date for first event, should be 14th June.
Cheers Denis

[allenbrown]

From the 1966 F1R book Brands 13 Nov 1966 :

#65 Martin Slater BT16 AM 25
#76 [MRS] Tony Trimmer BT16 F2-22-65

Trimmer's car looks like it was Stiller's third car being run by MRS.

Allen

[piglos]

May 1967 Racing Car News lists that the Alec Mildren BT16 fitted with a 2.5 Climax FPF had been sold to Niel Allen to drive. This car was predominantly driven by Fred Gibson, which is listed here as F2.8.65, so it has a bit more history.

This was the car debuted by Frank Gardner in the 1966 Hordern Trophy at Warwick Farm, and subsequently driven by him in the 1967 Tasman Series.

Dave Shaw

[Steve Wilkinson]

Report and news item reference the David Bridges BT16. The car was "demolished" during the F3 race at Oulton Park when Malcolm Smith crashed at Water Tower. The news story reports that Smith should be back soon in a "new Brabham BT21".

[Steve Wilkinson]

As part of the Hillclimb Championship review it mentions that Mike Hawley had a "new BT16 chassis with Twin Cam" for the start of the 1966 season.

[allenbrown]

Here's more on F2-17-65, AM49, history as per Chris's list above.

http://www.motorsportsmarket.com/pag...tail.asp?car=2

[merriewells]

Hi there, I am also new to this whole thing but while researching chassis
F-2-1-65, I can supply info from the time it left Winkelman Racing as Alan Rees car to a few years later.
In 1966 it was bought from Winkelman, by Bob Fuller of Connecticut and outfitted with a Cosworth MK12 to run in our Formula B series. He did quite well with it and although I can't quote specifics, he won most of the races he entered in 1967. It was then sold to Steve Brownstein of New York to run in 1968 also in Formula B. It still had the faithful MK12. He managed to win races at Lime Rock, Thompson, Bridgehamton, St.Jovite and Mosport. It was then traded to Fred Opert for a Chevron B-15b. I suppose this is where it could have been sold to Bruce Jenson. His results are unknown to me. Oddly enough I was at the Continental Series Vintage races at Lime Rock in 1996 and to my surprise saw tha car back with Winkelman Silver Striping and also an F-2 Cosworth SCA engine. It was owned by a Canadian Chap named Murray (last name escapes me) and driven by Fred Harris. I'm not even sure if he ran it that day, as he had a slew of cars to pick from. From there, the trail goes cold. There are pictures of the car from the 1968 season if any one is interested.
E-mail only.........Hope I filled in a few blanks for The 1st F-2 chassis of 1965. Cheers....................M.W.

[allenbrown]

Thanks for this - very useful. I'd love to see the pictures.

I don't have any results for Fuller but Steve Browstein raced a Brabham FB at the Lime Rock 2 Sep 1968 FA/FB pro race, qualifying a very impressive eighth. The car was given in the Autoweek report as a BT15.

I would guess that Fuller and Brownstein raced mainly in Nationals and Regionals.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Excuse my ignorance but what's a Cosworth MK12?

[merriewells]

Hi Allen,

Your right about mostly nationals and regionals. Bob Fuller was the head of a large company at the time and had little time to go far. Steve Brownstein was also limited in time to take what was basicly a 3 year old car with the MK12 engine, putting out about 140HP and run around the country and race the continental series with newer cars (Lotus 41's, Brabham Bt 18's and 21's running the current engines, Cosworth MK13, Vegantunes and Brian Harts putting out between 170 and 180 HP.). You are correct about the Lime Rock race. Although 8th overall on the grid, he was, I think, 1st or 2nd amongst the FB cars, and ahead of a whole bunch of the FA cars with their big V-8's. Do you know how he finished that race, because I don't. I can say that the race at St. Jovite was a prelim for the F-1 race in 1968. He won, beating such Canadian drivers as Jacque Couture, Bill Brack, Craig Hill and Peter Broeker all of whom had the latest equipment. Both Rindt and Alan Rees were quite tickled to see the old Winkeman car still winning races.
With regard to your question of MK12's and Mark13's, These were 1600cc Twin Cam engines built,I believe, for the American market. The 12 was good for about 140HP, the 13 was about 150-160 and then they were superceded by Vegantune and Brian Hart with about 170 to 180HP.
Sending you the few pics I have is no problem as long as you can tell me how to e-mail them to you. I know that one of them is at that mentioned Lime Rock race with the car sailing under one of the FA cars in big bend.
One is seen in the rain at Watkins Glen, where the car scored an overall win, FA, FB and FC cars, by over 1 lap. Cheers, M.W.

[allenbrown]

Brownstein retired at Lime Rock - 42 laps overheating. I'm guessing you didn't click on the link:

http://www.oldracingcars.com/results...hp?RaceID=LR68

You can email the pictures to me at allen@oldracingcars.com

Thanks for the explanation of the twin-cams.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

MW

Just wanted to check that the Steve Brownstein BT16 isn't the BT21 briefly raced by brother Bart in FC in early 1969.
Did it go straight to Fred Opert?
Do you have any more gems on formula cars from this period?

Chris

[merriewells]

Hi guy's,

Allen, thanks for the info and the link. I just e-mailed (2:15PM pacific time) 7 pictures to the address you gave me. If you don't get them, please let me know and we'll try again.

Chris, The path the BT-16 took was as described in an above note. As for the BT-21, I have no idea where or to whom it went. Sorry about that.

Take care all, M.W.

[merriewells]

Hi again Allen,
I just recieved a notice from my server saying your pictures were not deliverable. Maybe 7 was too many, so I'll send one and see what happens............................M.W.

[allenbrown]

First one's arrived

[Leighton Irwin]

That would be the Bruce Jensen car which he got in mid 69. He bought it from fast Freddy and traded in his Elva Mk7. He used the engine from the Elva. I started crewing for Bruce shortly after this. He ran it at Trois Rivieres, a race at Harewood and 'The Fun One' at the Glen. He then ran at Sebring in the 'Christmas' race. The car was normally entered as a BT18 as he was afraid the organizers would not accept a BT16. We weren't the only ones doing this!
The car was traded back to Opert in early 70 for a BT21 with a Vegatune.

[merriewells]

I'm curious as to why he would think the car would not be accepted as a BT-16. In the states, the normal requisite for acceptance was if it had tires. O.K. Kidding, but certainly no restrictions on year of build.

[Leighton Irwin]

Sebring was a pro Int'l race with European drivers and they were being a little picky. Bruce was at that time an unknown and this was his first pro race outside of Canada. He figured a BT16 might be considered too old. There were 2 other BT16's also entered as BT18s. Mike Bliss(?) from CA. was one.

[Basicbc]

Chris,
In 1967 I bought a BT16 F3 MAE from Fenwick Motors in East Lothian. The car did not have a serial number or an AM number. I exported it to Canada where I raced it in Formula C til 1972 with considerable success. It appeared to be more like a BT15 than a Bt16, however, all the documentation I have states that it is a BT16. I never did get any history on the care befor Fenwick Motors raced it. Do you or anyone out there know of this car.
Ray Smith

[Chris Townsend]

Ray, Welcome.
There were a few BT16s with MAEs in 1965/66, some of which can't be traced in 1967. Notable of these would be
F2.13.65 Tommy Hitchcock's Celerity Racing car which I can't trace after 65
F2.29.65 Sports Motors car used by Gethin in 1966
However, you might well be right about the car having been a BT15
Those more knowledgable than me about the 60s can probably tell whether Fenwick Motors of East Lothian [isn't that Edinburgh way?] had anything to do with Andrew Fletcher, but his BT15 F3.2.65 disappears after 1966

Chris

[Basicbc]

Hi Chris,
I have this niggling thing going on in my head and it is the name Peter Gethin. His name is familiar to me and I just get a sense that I heard it around my car. Further to that, you now know that my car was purchased in Edinbugh Scotland from Fenwick Motors in the fall of 1968 and one of the related purchase documents is stamped Sports Tune Motor Co. Lonniddry, East Lothian. Could that be the same Sports Motors that you refer to re F2.29.65 and Peter Gethin.
Regards,
Ray