Sports car/endurance sporting regulations

[W2Motorsport]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

SRO officials reallly made a mess of the 8 hours of Indy didn't they. 11 safety car periods! I can't imagine the Speedway will want them back after that. They want an endurance race not a parade with wrecks in between. Big shame after the Spa 24 went off fairly well. Safety car rules thankfully did not ruin that one.


My non-realistic wish would be for Indy 8 to become a race for IMSA GTD and Michilen Pilot Challene to run in together. But maybe this debacle will teach SRO some lessons? Maybe....errr..probably not :-(

The majority of the safety car periods were for legitimate issues where a safety car would be needed and would likely be called in an IMSA race as well. There were maybe a couple of instances where the SC took longer than needed but for the most part the issue was related to actual driving standards which were surprisingly bad considering the caliber of the grid. I spent most of the day around the final sector and there were many instances of fairly heavy contact that went unnoticed on the broadcast in addition to all of the contact that was well documented. I was walking around the garage after the race and you would of thought it had been a NASCAR or BTCC race, I'm not used to seeing cars this expensive with tire marks all over them and damage to every corner.

Also, they were talking about the dates for next years race already on the PA system at the track so your dreams of IMSA taking over the event are unlikely it seems at least in 2022. As with most SRO customer driven events I'm pretty sure the majority of the income from the race is derived from driver/manufacturer entry fees and team/hospitality related fees and not by spectator gate admission. If the manufacturers have an issue and stop participating then that is when I'd expect changes to the event promoter. Until that point I'd expect that SRO will maintain control.

Ideally, I'd like to see an IGTC race as well as an IMSA race at Indy each year personally. I know its very popular to hate on SRO here but I appreciate a lot of things they do. They aren't perfect but they stream their races for free, and easily on Youtube which is more than can be said for pretty much anyone else. The production quality is very high as well. They bring in quality entries from all over for the IGTC races as well. SRO have developed, and kept the class in check and it has personally become my favorite type of racing. The BOP that they apply for their series as well as other series around the world seems to be great as well with a big mix of manufacturers always in contention. I can say good things about most promoters in road racing, and bad things as well just like with SRO. Ideally I want them all to be successful in order to grow the sport.

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by W2Motorsport

The majority of the safety car periods were for legitimate issues where a safety car would be needed and would likely be called in an IMSA race as well. There were maybe a couple of instances where the SC took longer than needed but for the most part the issue was related to actual driving standards which were surprisingly bad considering the caliber of the grid. I spent most of the day around the final sector and there were many instances of fairly heavy contact that went unnoticed on the broadcast in addition to all of the contact that was well documented. I was walking around the garage after the race and you would of thought it had been a NASCAR or BTCC race, I'm not used to seeing cars this expensive with tire marks all over them and damage to every corner.

Also, they were talking about the dates for next years race already on the PA system at the track so your dreams of IMSA taking over the event are unlikely it seems at least in 2022. As with most SRO customer driven events I'm pretty sure the majority of the income from the race is derived from driver/manufacturer entry fees and team/hospitality related fees and not by spectator gate admission. If the manufacturers have an issue and stop participating then that is when I'd expect changes to the event promoter. Until that point I'd expect that SRO will maintain control.

Ideally, I'd like to see an IGTC race as well as an IMSA race at Indy each year personally. I know its very popular to hate on SRO here but I appreciate a lot of things they do. They aren't perfect but they stream their races for free, and easily on Youtube which is more than can be said for pretty much anyone else. The production quality is very high as well. They bring in quality entries from all over for the IGTC races as well. SRO have developed, and kept the class in check and it has personally become my favorite type of racing. The BOP that they apply for their series as well as other series around the world seems to be great as well with a big mix of manufacturers always in contention. I can say good things about most promoters in road racing, and bad things as well just like with SRO. Ideally I want them all to be successful in order to grow the sport.

You are mostly right W2 I see your point. Glad you got to be there in person. Great perspective. The cringe to see so much damage to Porsches, Ferraris, Audis, etc. These are not the spec stock cars the other series you mentioned has.

I have been into SRO racing since 2010. I think its awesome. Just disagree with their safety car procedures which is why I posted it on this thread. The more of them there are the more the flaws exposes themselves. We were able to avoid that at Spa. GT WC has been pretty good as a whole this year. The Indy 8 was the first stinker of the year honestly.

Back to the safety car. I go back and forth on who is worst with their safety car proceduers...IMSA or SRO. Probably IMSA ultimatey. I just don't like that SRO does the FCY while cleaning the track....then bunches the field for a safety car. IMSA has the wave around rules, the quick reaction to fly it for debris sometimes, and sepearting the classes at restarts. Go to youtube and watch the 2nd half of the IMSA Weathertech series race at Long Beach in 2017. That will show you why I liked the old way of doing things.

[W2Motorsport]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

You are mostly right W2 I see your point. Glad you got to be there in person. Great perspective. The cringe to see so much damage to Porsches, Ferraris, Audis, etc. These are not the spec stock cars the other series you mentioned has.

I have been into SRO racing since 2010. I think its awesome. Just disagree with their safety car procedures which is why I posted it on this thread. The more of them there are the more the flaws exposes themselves. We were able to avoid that at Spa. GT WC has been pretty good as a whole this year. The Indy 8 was the first stinker of the year honestly.

Back to the safety car. I go back and forth on who is worst with their safety car proceduers...IMSA or SRO. Probably IMSA ultimatey. I just don't like that SRO does the FCY while cleaning the track....then bunches the field for a safety car. IMSA has the wave around rules, the quick reaction to fly it for debris sometimes, and sepearting the classes at restarts. Go to youtube and watch the 2nd half of the IMSA Weathertech series race at Long Beach in 2017. That will show you why I liked the old way of doing things.

Yeah I totally understand that for sure. I think the divide is between the people here (lets say true endurance racing fans) and the average casual fans -- especially in America. The idea of one or two cars being on the lead lap at the end of the race is off putting to the majority of people even if those two cars deserved it.

My grandfather does not like road racing at all - he likes dirt and asphalt short track racing with the bumping and banging and the majority of cars on the lead lap and cautions to bunch up the field, etc. He often asks me how or why I like road racing because there isn't as much passing or action. He kept checking the Indy 8 Hours because I was there and I think he was trying to watch for me in the background on the broadcast or something but eventually he actually became interested in the race because of all the drama. When I talked to him on the phone the next day he told me how that was probably the most interesting road race he's ever watched.

It might not be the most true endurance race but it did have a lot of lead changes, a lot of action and a lot of drama. The pit strategy was fun to see play out bringing several cars back from a lap down multiple times (and the 99 back to contention for the win from a lap down twice). Ultimately all the cars are racing under the same rules so in a sense it is still fair although certain cars will be unlucky in certain races and others will be lucky. I do think trying to attract new fans to Endurance racing by having one or two cars on the lead lap is unlikely to be something that works. Even I get bored and tune out sometimes when the winner is a foregone conclusion with 2 or 3 hours to go.

[WyldStallion]

@W2 that is so cool you get to talk to your grandpa about racing. He seems into the sprints, short tracks, and such. Probably a good direction to take him with road racing is GT World challenge europe sprint series and DTM. Might suit his style more than endurance races, which has more of a niche audience.

And since this is a thread about racing procedures and regulations, I wonder why no series has ever decided to run to differnet procecures for caution periods in an endurance race vs a sprint race (sub 3 hours races). What the SRO does is fine for shorter races. Its only in the endurance events where it rears its ugly head.

I like what DTM does in that if there is a safety car period in any of their 55 minute races. They add 3 laps to the end after the clock hits 0, no matter what.

[Mike E]

Driver grading methods looking like they will be overhauled. Probably overdue.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/f...-2022/6688262/

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Driver grading methods looking like they will be overhauled. Probably overdue.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/f...-2022/6688262/

They make some good points, like why do we have gold and platinum leveled drivers with factory drives? If a full pro can be in both, are both needed classes? That seems pretty easy to resolve. It is the other end that gets trickier when you have the young aspiring pro with minimal experience and results getting classified same as a person working a full time job other than racing.

[Mike E]

2022 driver headings released. Several significant Silver to Gold changes, amongst other changes.

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/...ankings-2.html

[WyldStallion]

Maybe the Petit Le Mans will teach IMSA that if SRO and WEC can do a virtual FCY, then they can too.

The major pile up crash would not have happened in such scenario. Time under green would be greater too. Also the gaps between cars that builds up would be preserved (and that is a GOOD thing).

[broadrun96]

Do you really not understand the reason or are you intentionally obstinate??

Umm and watch more racing, that would have happened under your magical virtual FCY as that's LITERALLY what happened there. One row went and one did not based on a virtual call from 4 corners ahead


Answer to the first condition, IT'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN IN A US BASED SERIES. NEVER, insurance always wins

[Pandamasque]

broadrun96, if you weren't intentionally obstinate just for the sake of being a condescending **** to fellow forum members, you'd consider the possibility of there being safer options, such as not having two rows in virtual FCY restarts or not allowing overtaking before the start-finish line in a safety car restart, either of which could have prevented this from happening.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong and US insurance situation actually requires things to be a bit boogity-boogity by design. But I'm leaning more towards the organisers being hypocrites. They ignore hazardous situations just fine when it suits the show.

Speaking of which, did anyone else notice something what looked a lot like a road car tyre on the grass like 2 metres away from the track (and the racing line) on driver's left? Somewhere around turn 6 area, if I remember correctly. It was there before, during and after the 1st FCY and disappeared likely during the 2nd FCY.

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Do you really not understand the reason or are you intentionally obstinate??

Umm and watch more racing, that would have happened under your magical virtual FCY as that's LITERALLY what happened there. One row went and one did not based on a virtual call from 4 corners ahead


Answer to the first condition, IT'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN IN A US BASED SERIES. NEVER, insurance always wins

Creventic has had Code 60 when running in the USA before. I don't "buy" this insurance argument.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

Creventic has had Code 60 when running in the USA before. I don't "buy" this insurance argument.

They are NOT a US based series. IMSA is wholly based and insured within the US. Sorry, you can not buy it but it's reality and pretending you know better just shows cluelessness on your part

PLEASE LISTEN VERY CLEARLY, NO ONE IS ALLOWED ON A NOT FULL COURSE CAUTIONED TRACK UNDER US SERIES (and insured) SAFETY RULES. I spent almost 2 hours on Thursday of Petit weekend talking with a couple from the Homaltro safety team. they have asked and been told by every series they work with that without a FCY you cannot go on track. This couple did while working a Creventic event and were fired mid-session while waiting for clearance to enter the track. So before you run your yap and pretend somehow me telling you factual information is condescending, it is not you're just thin skinned, maybe try actually talking to track officials and workers. You might learn something

[Pandamasque]

You're being disingenuous, again. You can talk to track workers all day long, but they do not make the rules. Why on Earth, based on that, should we believe your story that insurance companies require safety workers operating on track not only with racecars going slowly, but with them going slowly with an extra car carrying sponsorship in front?
Not to mention, that under Code60 type rules all cars are required to slow down immediately, not only the ones that have reached the safety car queue.

[WyldStallion]

60 KPH is about 40 miles per hour roughly. We see construction workers on the regular streets every day where cars faster than that pass by them by mere inches all day long. So what if WEC and Creventic are Euro based series, they are still on USA dirt and pavement/concreate running their races.

Code 60 can and should be done in IMSA. Especially for stalled cars and debris. If you want to have safety cars for crashes and bad weather still that is fine I guess. But restart procedures need to be looked at. Track by track. Road Atlanta for instance the back stretch would be a good place to fly the green for the front of the field so that the back of the filed will be starting to accelerate at the beginning of the long straight. Start/Finish line is not always the longest straight away at some of these tracks. V.I.R and Mid Ohio are other examples.

[Pandamasque]

The only situation where a Safety Car is needed is a situation that calls for grid to be bunched together in order to allow greater intervals for marshals to not worry about cars passing through. And it's a rather narrow set of parameters that would necessitate that. I'm talking safety-related, not manipulating competition. When the track is so covered in debris that any clean-up work would be unsafe with cars moving through at any speed at all. In that case Code 60 is implemented immediately, then a Safety Car comes out and leads cars single file on the narrow path through the debris, while all of workers step aside and only resume work in the long intervals between the entire field passing though. That is the ONLY safety-related reason to have a safety car. One example would be the aftermath of that restart pile-up before turn 10 at Petit. But one could argue that was really a red flag scenario!
And yes, there is absolutely no reason why those course vehicles cannot go out on track and shield the marshals and medics under Code60 just like they do under SC. None!

In every other situation an SC is
1. just an extra vehicle that may also run over a marshal
2. disruption to race flow/strategies
3. constant cause of mayhem in the pitlane which regularly results in accidents between cars with mechanics narrowly escaping life-altering injuries
4.* a tool to spice up the show through all of the above, and to have an opportunity for broadcasters to mention sponsors, such as: sponsor of the pit-report, fuel provider, tyre manufacturer(s) etc., to insert an infomercial segment, to have an ad break etc.

*the real reason they are still used. Luckily IMSA is only guilty of some of those things, but nowhere near as bad as Indycar, which I find completely unwatchable despite the racing being very good.

[WyldStallion]

Will GTD Pro and GTD Am have seperate wave arounds after safety cars? Looks like IMSA is keeping the sporting regs as-is more or less next year. Will have to wait another year to get code 60. But I am not certain about the GTD pro vs am wave around thing though.

[NaBUru38]

This is a bit confusing. The new criteria means that young, underfunded, F3-level drivers can be labelled as Gold, and therefore will get little chances of earning rides.

[bella]

the "young underfunded" f3 level drivers are the loophole they're trying to close, as you notice. those drivers only get a run for as long as it takes them to lose their silver rating (between one and two seasons usually), then they're back to square one. they're looking more for "true" silvers, rather than gold standard drivers who qualify because they've not had top line single seater drives for whatever reason.

besides, looking forward those low cost/free to the right driver types of seat won't really be sustainable anyway with the introduction of hypercars.

[Mike E]

SRO announces new GTWC Europe Endurance classes based on the new driver classifications. The old sneaky Silvers are now Golds so the Silver Cup becomes the Gold Cup. And the old Gold Cup becomes the new Silver Cup, more or less.
Pro Am becomes the Bronze Cup and Pro is renamed Overall.

https://sportscar365.com/sro/world-c...r-next-season/

[Mike E]

The 2023 driver gradings have been published. There will be some fun and games for teams working this out.


https://www.dailysportscar.com/2022/...published.html

[Mike E]

Hopping over from the Bathurst chat.
They have found a great compromise for safety car period pit lane access.
The pit lane never closes, including under SC conditions.
Everyone lines up behind the SC with the race leader at the front of the queue.
Anyone who has been lapped may then move out of the queue to attempt to regain a lap but they are only given about a third of a lap headstart before the pack is released again. If you're slow you get lapped again, as god intended.
No delays, no closed pits with emergency refuels, no regulations saying who can pit in what order, SC withdrawn when the incident is cleared, MORE RACING LESS TWATTING ABOUT IN RACE CONTROL.

[Mike E]

New driver gradings released. Sarah Bovy's traditional Bronze to Silver to Bronze journey kicks off again...

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2024/...-for-2025.html

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by Mike E

New driver gradings released. Sarah Bovy's traditional Bronze to Silver to Bronze journey kicks off again...

https://www.dailysportscar.com/2024/...-for-2025.html

It'll be interesting to see if Malykhin appeals. Yes he's a good bronze, but would probably end up being a slow silver.

[flatlandsman]

How the hell is Neary Gold does he do ADAC or DTM or something?

Bovy is never a bronze and Malykyn has peed all over everyone as a bronze this year even bovy, so needs to move up, has got them a huge advantage all year

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

How the hell is Neary Gold does he do ADAC or DTM or something?

Bovy is never a bronze and Malykyn has peed all over everyone as a bronze this year even bovy, so needs to move up, has got them a huge advantage all year

I wouldn't say he's peed all over every bronze driver and don't forget he's driving a car engineered by Manthey.