Want to see overtaking? -- Penalize blocking

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by bauble

Get rid of Tilke and ground affects and let's get back to proper motor racing.

I've heard of that ... wasn't it called the pre-war era?

I say let the engineers and aerodynamicists design whatever their minds can dream up. The best minds designing the fastest cars for the pinnacle of motorsport. Technology, aero and slicks.

There seems to be a running theme here that aero messes up the trailing airflow and messes with the follower's ability to pass. That's the price you pay for being slower or qualifying behind in the first place. In short, there's a reason the guy out front is out front and it's his advantage. Period.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

There seems to be a running theme here that aero messes up the trailing airflow and messes with the follower's ability to pass. That's the price you pay for being slower or qualifying behind in the first place. In short, there's a reason the guy out front is out front and it's his advantage. Period.

It's not a theme, it's a fact. And if a car is clearly so much quicker down the straights but can't get in the tow because they lose so much downforce in the car ahead's dirty air as the exit a corner, well there's something very badly wrong with a series that allows it's teams to construct aero parts that have no other function than to generate as much dirty air as possible, therefore impeding a car behind's chance to pass.

But hey, if that's what the "purists" want, then fine. They can enjoy they two hour demonstration runs where the cars don't come within a straight of each other and all the action happens in the pit lane in Max's celebrated "chess game" of strategies.....there are plenty of other Motorsports out there that'll keep my interest, thanks!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

There seems to be a running theme here that aero messes up the trailing airflow and messes with the follower's ability to pass.

Correct. That running theme is a fact borne out by the evidence of the last few years' F1.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

That's the price you pay for being slower or qualifying behind in the first place. In short, there's a reason the guy out front is out front and it's his advantage. Period.

So in other words what you're saying is that the driver's just a well paid a passenger and the car with the best aero deserves victory every time. Taken to extremes in that sense why not just place each car in a wind-tunnel and give the trophy to the team with the best Cd ?

Motor-racing is combat of MAN and machine, not just machine. We need F1 to be motor-racing.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by davyboy

That running theme is a fact borne out by the evidence of the last few years' F1.

Quite true, perhaps I should have phrased my point as "fact" as opposed to "running theme". My fault.

Originally Posted by davyboy

So in other words what you're saying is that the driver's just a well paid a passenger and the car with the best aero deserves victory every time.

That is not what I said davyboy. What I said was: the car in front has the advantage. Fact. Aero design helps keep that car in front. Fact. All teams have the ability to exploit both of those facts so it's an even playing field.

Did you watch F1 in 2005 because I thoroughly enjoyed the whole season and there were some very memorable passes. Shock, horror, disbelief! ... passing with aero!

Leave it alone and let the designers and engineers do what they do best.
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[RaceFreak]

Quicksilver said:"Leave it alone and let the designers and engineers do what they do best"

F1 can go several directions, phlosophically, in their approach to competition. All are perfectly valid, but have different outcomes. I USED to think along Quicksilver's lines. I've watched F1 evolve over the past several seasons and compared it to the evolution of other series (with different approaches). Two which come to mind are Champcar (spec cars with sophisticated aero) and A1GP (spec cars w purposely unsophisticated aero). Similar concepts, but the aero pkg makes them very different series. Not so much passing in CC, LOTS of passing in A1. The in-car video shows Champcars like F1: quite stable with smooth steering wheel inputs. A1 is very different: driver fighting the wheel in a car with much less downforce (and a slower car overall). From a spectators perspective I like the A1GP concept better, as it has much more dicing, passing, and a closer level of competition. FIA changes F1's rules annually to tighten competition, reduce costs, and slow the cars down. They might consider adjusting their philosophical approach to competition: it would solve all their problems simultaneously, and make for better racing as well.

[davyboy]

Without getting into a confrontational situation with QuickSilver [cause I'm too much of a nice guy :-)], the points made highlight that F1's come to a crossroads.
Everybody enjoys the fact that the cars are the most advanced of their kind on earth and that developing them stretches design brains and financial resources to the limit. However, we all sit down on a Sunday afternoon to be entertained. We want to see close racing, with fighting and dicing. We want to see a nailbiting end to every GP and we want to see many different drivers with the opportunity for victory.
It would appear however that both of these situations, as they are at the moment, are mutually exclusive.

[Adam43]

The cross roads. Turn left to join all the other series? Turn right to continue being different and staying close to what you were invented for? It is dull if everyone goes the same way. As spectators we can go straight on up the hill and have a great view of both.

[davyboy]

The good thing is that the FIA recognizes that technical evolution and entertainment must co-exist and are eager to intervene in an effort to realize this. Though well intended, their interventions often seem to strike wide of the mark. You know you need to change direction at the crossroads, but instead of the obvious 4 options of tarmac, you choose the grass and end up on a different road going somewhere else altogether - i.e. grooved tyres to temper aero-based adhesion !

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

It is dull if everyone goes the same way.

Absolutely agree. Case in point, U.S. style NASCAR is a series where everyone is forced into a very small envelope. NASCAR has tons of passing, drafting, pit strategies etc and the racing is bloody boring.

Originally Posted by davyboy

... instead of the obvious 4 options of tarmac, you choose the grass and end up on a different road going somewhere else altogether

Ummm, not quite sure I understand what you mean.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

The cross roads. Turn left to join all the other series? Turn right to continue being different and staying close to what you were invented for? It is dull if everyone goes the same way. As spectators we can go straight on up the hill and have a great view of both.

But put on boring racing, and no-one will watch.

If no-one watches, Sponsors will leave

If sponsors leave, budgets for fancy aero dissapear.....

As horrible as it may sound to the purists, F1 has to be entertaining, otherwise people will find something else to do with their Sunday afternoons, eyes will leave TV sets and F1 bound money will stay in their pockets!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by codename_47

As horrible as it may sound to the purists, F1 has to be entertaining, otherwise people will find something else to do with their Sunday afternoons, eyes will leave TV sets and F1 bound money will stay in their pockets!

Believe it or not I'm a purist myself and am disgusted with the way class 1 kart racing has degenerated into two one make formulae of low-revving pseudo-stock classes, but kart racing is driven by participation not spectating. You're absolutely right that if F1 ignores the fact that it needs to entertain it will loose the casual viewer [who comprises the vast majority of the audience] and with it a lot of potential sponsorship revenue. I think there is a way to hit the optimum of purism and entertainment though. Its just not been managed yet.

By the way... we [me included] seem to have drifted well off the subject of banning blocking here :-)

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Ummm, not quite sure I understand what you mean.

Just trying to draw analagy to the fact that though the FIA do recognize problems of the kind we're discussing here, they often fail to legislate effectively to correct them.

[Andrew2001]

Haven't read anything here but I personally think the answer is reducing the amount of work the engineers can do with the aerodynamics on top of the body work, and let them do what they please underneath, keep a smooth clean shape that does little to damage the air as it goes passed then we have action folks, I watch my 1988 review and think wow, how things used to be, if only the bunch of prats in suits sitting around boardroom tables at the FIA meetings in Paris were actually f1 fans themselves they'd know what to do....

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by codename_47

If no-one watches, Sponsors will leave

Quite and then it will die naturally. If it goes the other way then we another other series - will people watch another other series?

Rugby isn't as popular as football (at least here), but the answer isn't to ban holding the ball and put a net behind the posts. If you do that you don't have rugby anymore. If we go too far with these changes then we aren't being entertained by F1 anyway.

Back to the other series, they are good and they adhear to a lot of what is trying to be proposed in F1. It suits the these series and I already watch them and am entertained by them - I don't need another other series. However many of the people who watch F1 and need to be entertained want to change F1 rather than watching the other series. It seems pointless to me. In addition if we change F1 too much what will we have to moan about and what can we watch and not be entertained.

[Rex Judicata]

It seems the rule-makers do not care, or they would attempt to address the problem. Look at all of the rules they create that are answers to questions nobody asked -- start with the ill conceived V-8 F-Jr that will replace F-1 in 2006. Blocking - many think Alonso's blocking of Schumacher at Imola was good racing. As long as such opinions are held, we will not have any anti-blocking rules.

[Menelaos]

More rules less overtaking. I don't think it's going to help at all. Unless a move is really dangerous I don't think there should be any rules when it comes to overtaking and/or defending your position.

[Jordi]

I think there's enough overtaking. Basically if you have a qualifying session which already puts the quick guys ahead, it's hard to see the guys who qualified 14th or 15th advancing easily.

Often you get the best races from guys qualifying at the back or screwing up at the start. Check Senna at Suzuka 88, he nearly stalled it but regained all the ground and won the thing. Prost at Mexico 90, qualified 14th or so and won the thing. Schumacher at Spa 1995, again, 16th and won. Ayrton's Donington 1993: Had he been on pole he wouldn't have needed to pass anyone, but he wasn't and made his way to the top fairly quickly. Schumacher at Montmeló 96, again, horrible start but then went one by one...

[pitcrew]

HAHAHAHAHAHA Who started this thread!!!

Stupid Idea

Just let them race! 2008 rules will encourage this, with the rule changes we dont need to enforce more driver rules.

[Bluewolf]

Originally Posted by pitcrew

HAHAHAHAHAHA Who started this thread!!!

Stupid Idea

Just let them race! 2008 rules will encourage this, with the rule changes we dont need to enforce more driver rules.

Oh I get it pitcrew -- So we should all contact you before we start a thread and run it by you to see if you will give it your blessing before we go forward -- There has been quite a lot of interest in this thread so obviously a lot of people don't agree with you -- You would do yourself a favor by being a bit more circumspect before you react -- all your doing is revealing your immaturity and lack of openmindedness.

[pitcrew]

Originally Posted by Bluewolf

Oh I get it pitcrew -- So we should all contact you before we start a thread and run it by you to see if you will give it your blessing before we go forward -- There has been quite a lot of interest in this thread so obviously a lot of people don't agree with you -- You would do yourself a favor by being a bit more circumspect before you react -- all your doing is revealing your immaturity and lack of openmindedness.

Not really Bluewolf, just expressing my openmindness like everyone else on this fourm.

But thanks for your opinion