The new V8 saloon series-any news?

[Al Weyman]

Power to weight ratio thats a laugh in itself how the hell are they gonna police that in this day of computer mapped ignitions, as Badiel and Skinner sung, it'll never work, it'll never work its a cheats charter. Anyhow this measuring it business, I have had estimated my car (black IROC Z/28) produces over 500bhp and I know for a fact it would never stay on the rollers to take a full power reading that is just a silly rule IMHO with respect to who ever has put it together, sorry but I speak from a position of some experience putting saloon car regs together.

[lewis360]

this is what this countries motorsport needs fire spitting loud V8 touring cars can wait for this and DTM at brands aswell

[ss_collins]

I saw the VERCO at the show - nice looking thing, wonder if its the same chassis that SCV8 rebodied a few times - sounds like them. Anyway it had a £200K price tage less engine - I thought - I could have a Le Mans able LMP2 for that. Smiled and realised that it will never work in this country.

[Al Weyman]

In the States there is a nice little series as I understand it Mustangs vs Camaros. Now they use the 3rd and 4th Gen Camaros and late model Mustangs and have sensible rules and from what I have read produce a nice spectacle and all V8's and I bet £200,000 plus the price of an engine would probably buy half if not all the field.

Why does everything have to be so unneccessarily bloody expensive. I bet the American series is just as spectacular to watch and (A) it happens and (B) it happens because it is affordable. The point is from a spectacle point of view 5, 8 even 10 seconds a lap slower makes little or no odds if all the field are lapping at a similar pace.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Power to weight ratio thats a laugh in itself how the hell are they gonna police that in this day of computer mapped ignitions, as Badiel and Skinner sung, it'll never work, it'll never work its a cheats charter. Anyhow this measuring it business, I have had estimated my car (black IROC Z/28) produces over 500bhp and I know for a fact it would never stay on the rollers to take a full power reading that is just a silly rule IMHO with respect to who ever has put it together, sorry but I speak from a position of some experience putting saloon car regs together.

your getting warm...

problem I see for this V8 serise is this...
I know a few of the cars planning to run, for example, one is way under 1000Kg's but has a 650+bhp engine. accoring to the regs's 600Bhp = 1350Kg's so on the far of it, it's going to have to carry 400+Kg's.

now, this is clearly stupid and unsafe, however, I really can't see it being enforced as how can you possibly dyno such a car?

once you get to ~3-400 Bhp, it's impractical to use a rolling road (it's almost impossible to get one to cope with this sort of power without massive wheelsplip etc. and the losses will be almost half the quoted power).

then you compare these trpe of cars with some production V8 sports car, and I can't think of a single car that's under 1,500Kg's..

don't get me wrong, I love to see cars like the V8 stars etc, but you cannot expect a level playing field.

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Power to weight ratio thats a laugh in itself how the hell are they gonna police that in this day of computer mapped ignitions, as Badiel and Skinner sung, it'll never work, it'll never work its a cheats charter. Anyhow this measuring it business, I have had estimated my car (black IROC Z/28) produces over 500bhp and I know for a fact it would never stay on the rollers to take a full power reading that is just a silly rule IMHO with respect to who ever has put it together, sorry but I speak from a position of some experience putting saloon car regs together.

i think they will us a bolt on dyno, you know the sort unbolt the rear wheels and bolt it on the hub, as for cheating power figures its never been easier, the ecu for the beemer has wet and dry maps in it and you can switch between them whilst running, and no body would know which map its running on, so its 3 maps then sir, wet, dry and power testing.......

the only way that sort of thing can 100% work is if every one is on an identical control ecu and wiring with no access to the software, hell the only reason that traction control got back into F1 was they couldn't police it!

[Al Weyman]

Simon I presume owners/builders of the ones that are planning to run in your examples know the regs unless this was imposed post construction which seems a bit tough. I think the power/weight thing is a good idea in theory, in reality it may prove to a vastly different kettle of fish.

Not sure I like the idea of a bolt on dyno Graham, I bet there will be the odd blow up or two! If they want to keep the powere and weights reasonable as my example above with the American Camaro/Mustang challenge then this could be achieved far cheaper because building lieghtweight and powerful cars is expensive, if they have to weigh X amount and only have a maximum power of Y bhp then I am sure that the cars could be constructed for far far less than 2000k!

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

i think they will us a bolt on dyno, you know the sort unbolt the rear wheels and bolt it on the hub, as for cheating power figures its never been easier, the ecu for the beemer has wet and dry maps in it and you can switch between them whilst running, and no body would know which map its running on, so its 3 maps then sir, wet, dry and power testing.......

the only way that sort of thing can 100% work is if every one is on an identical control ecu and wiring with no access to the software, hell the only reason that traction control got back into F1 was they couldn't police it!

yup, only issue here is that with half the cars running centre lock rimm's, I can't think of a single hub-dyno that could cope with *all* the different fittings.... it's easy when you only have 4,5 and 6 bolt wheels.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Simon I presume owners/builders of the ones that are planning to run in your examples know the regs unless this was imposed post construction which seems a bit tough. I think the power/weight thing is a good idea in theory, in reality it may prove to a vastly different kettle of fish.

P/W is a simple theory, it's just in a mixed car serise it's practially impossible to make it work.

you have to remeber that your 'production' based car is NOTHING like the stort of stuff being lined up for this. the V8 Star's are spaceframes, as are the other stuff looking to enter. when people are paying Mclaren Nichols for XB's to be built etc, then this should give you an idea of what money is being spent on prepping these cars, the words 'level playing field' and 'low budget' does not come into it.

[Al Weyman]

Well if you are talking spaceframe cars and exotic materials (Carbon Fibre/Kevlar) I would say you would have more of a problem making that weight than if did use a production based car. Eg. my car with all steel panels (except bonnet) all original glass, small block chevy v8, truck 4 speed manual trans, original GM rear end and suspension 'only' weighs in at 1300kgs, if I subsituted the glass and doors for lightweight alternatives (I might yet do that for TRC and CT) I reckon 1100kgs would be obtainable so I can easy see how a special is going to come in at 1000kgs and less.

[tazracer]

I too had a quick mooch at the regs and couldnt quite work it out... there are supposed to be a couple of sagaris bodied tuscan challenge cars being prepped to run in our series and the britcar v8's but there going to come in wel under 1000kg and kick out about 450 bhp...


doesnt look like theres a home for my Tuscan either about 930 kg with fuel and driver. and about 300bhp with its new rv8

also are the power figures at the wheels or flywheel ?

I did hear it said that they were going to use DL1 data loggers in britcar this year for power/weight. thats all very well and they can be quite acurate **IF** you have accurate rolling resistance and cda for each car, take the readings on the flat with no wind. etc etc... and there is a lot of processing to do.

I did like the idea but its starting to look expensive... maybe it needs one of those. " anyone can buy the winning car from park ferme at the end of the season for 20k rules"

[Al Weyman]

anyone can buy the winning car from park ferme at the end of the season for 20k rules

Ha now funny you should say that. When we first penned the rules for the ModProds we had just that off the top of my head I think it was around 12k for a class A car and progressivly less down the line. many said it would not work and campaigned to get it thrown out which eventually it did, the following year ex-BTCC cars modified to our regs (???) and stunning South African spec (????) 3 Series BMW's and ex Brocky Touring cars started appearing and I personally think the championship took a bit of a backward step.

A rule like this (we called it a Buying/Selling plate) is IMHO workable and the worst that can happen if someone does not want to sell well then there is no obligation in law they just can't compete again with the vehicle. However if there car was a winner by their and skills of preparation they could say thank you very much that will do nicely, lets build another one. We also had something in the rules that if the car was bought it could not run in the championship again so really it was never used but it was a deterent (I think), whether any good or not who knows.

[ss_collins]

Ive never been a fan of that kinda of rule - purely for practical reasons, I spend a winter working my arse off to get a car sorted - do ok with it during the season just for someone to buy it off me leaving me with the option to start again or to buy somone elses handiwork, to reprep over again.
Know what I mean - you want your own car you kinda connect with it.

[Alan Raine]

Not keen myself. If I had built a race winner the last thing I would want to do is HAVE to sell it if asked. (Not much chance of that!)

I am not really sure what it would really achieve, apart from giving someone with no talent, but a lot of cash the opportunity to buy something a bit special.

[tazracer]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

I am not really sure what it would really achieve, apart from giving someone with no talent, but a lot of cash the opportunity to buy something a bit special.

Isnt that the point though it aims to stop someone throwing stupid amounts of cash into a car i.e 60 grands worth of engine which someone else could then pick up the whole thing for 20k at the end of the season...

The talent to cash ratio is always a difficult one to work with,

also note the I didnt necc say it was a good idea

G

[Al Weyman]

I must confess as may be apparent from my post I was remembering the difficults as I got to the end of the post and on balance I do attend to agree that it was unworkable. Another idea I had was instead of a car buying plate an engine buying plate bit no one wanted that either!

[R59]

Originally Posted by Simon S

P/W is a simple theory, it's just in a mixed car serise it's practially impossible to make it work.

you have to remeber that your 'production' based car is NOTHING like the stort of stuff being lined up for this. the V8 Star's are spaceframes, as are the other stuff looking to enter. when people are paying Mclaren Nichols for XB's to be built etc, then this should give you an idea of what money is being spent on prepping these cars, the words 'level playing field' and 'low budget' does not come into it.

Do I look scared? No.

Am I concerned that there are cars going to be sharing the grid with me that have engines which cost over twice what my entire car cost to put (back) together. No.

Am I expecting a level playing field? No. - why... because my "Ford Capri with a Godzilla Converted Vauxhall Astra Body" is never going to compete on technical terms with an ex-DTM car, nor a V8-Star, nor a Peugeot 407 with Nicholson McLaren built Cosworth XB, but what I am hoping is that James does what James does, and look at matters in terms of levelling performance.

With my animal, I expect to go banzai down the straights using brute force and ignorance. I then expect the limitations of basic agricultural live axle rear end, with "hotrod" front end allowing the glorified F1/sportscars with saloon bodies to catch up, if not pass me.

The entertainment potential for the crowds (three men and a dog) should be great.

What will screw it up is if I have to run at the same power to weight as one of these products of Adrian Newey's drawing board....

All I need now is to find someone with enough talent to take over at the pitstop, with a wedge of cash who can afford to share in the running of it.

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

Is it really based on a Capri chassis Rob or was that a joke?

[R59]

When Empress built the car, they used a 5-link Atlas at the back, and Capri struts/crossmember, etc.. at the front - OK they're LEDA coil-overs, and it's all rosejointed, but it's Capri none the less.

Which is why I'm toying with changing the front end to Can-Am McLaren or March wishbone setup, which will enable me to move the rack forwards about 6 inches, and that'll put it ahead of the front pulley, allowing me to drop the motor in the bay by a couple of inches which all will make it handle better.

So, no joke.

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

Linked rear end, MacPherson (modified) front suspension, sounds a bit like the standard set up on my IROC Camaro and probably weighs about the same, lot of work and a heck of a lot of money to achieve something similiar :-)

[Randy]

This series is Formula Libre, no two ways about it. That’s fine when things are starting out because it brings a good variety of grid but at some stage a set of regs needs to be enforced otherwise budgets sky rocket. How these regs come together I don't know but power to weight is certainly not workable. My personal opinion is that cars should not be allowed to be built specifically for the series and only defunct cars from other series should be allowed in, running the regs they originally had too. ie an Aussie supercar runs to supercar regs and a TVR Tuscan runs to Tuscan Challenge regs. On top of this a sensible amount of ballast can be added, like up to 50kg, to balance performance.

[R59]

As I said, it's going to be interesting with the wide range of machinery.

I'm probably going to the press day, and if things go to plan this coming Friday, I'll also (most likely) have a test there. That's when we'll see the relative speed of the cars. Some of that speed will be directly proportional to the value of talent, as well as horsepower.

Using the regs of the defunct series, etc, is a non-starter too. My car was a Thundersaloon - almost anything goes!.

Weight can be a great equaliser, another thing he could do is allow, or deny, aerodynamics, or wheel widths, etc..

But as has been said, power to weight rules may penalise against ill handling barn doors compared to nimble ground-up designed "sports-cars with tintop bodies".

I think this year the "Challenge" will be to hone the rules so that they work.

All I know is I gotta get fit again!

Rob.

[djinvicta]

Suppose the excuse this year is that your so fat ya cant fit in it!

[R59]

Not fat, just knadgered. Probably due to burning the candle at both ends!

My suit still fits OK, but I am looking at getting a new one. For some reason, they never seem to make them with long enough legs for a lanky oik like me.

I thought about getting a mountain bike, but there are no mountains around here to ride up/down.

I could get one of those rowing machines, but I'll probably get sea sick.

Then there's a bullworker - but according to some, there's enough bull already.

Step aerobics.... I keep going up the steps and finding the bedroom.

I do go in for weight lifting, and a balanced diet (pint in each hand).

[djinvicta]

So! Its definitley hitting the tarmac in anger, and will compete? When are you testing at Brands? Perhaps we can persuade Pete with cash, (He will wake up now), to join you in the Escort for a sideways test day. Better stay in front Pete; dont want to ruin a set of tyres..