Castroneves or Tracy?

[macdaddy]

The announcers stated during the race that when the yellow comes out, all racing must immediately cease, and the running order reverts to that of the previous lap. So even had Tracy completed the pass before the crash, it likely would have been disallowed anyway.

I don't agree with "racing to the line" on yellows. What if the leaders were on the backstretch when a wreck occured in turn four? They'd race right into it.

Yes, Castroneves was very, very lucky to win this race. And Tracy was equally unlucky to not win. But 50% of racing is luck. Just ask Kanaan.

Personally, I was torn for this race. I was rooting for an all-CART sweep like last year, while at the same time rooting for an all-Penske sweep like last year. But Helio has become one of my all-time favourite drivers, so when he got into the lead I was really excited. But as the laps wore down without any yellows, I was just as nervous as Cindric about the fuel onboard that car. I was shifting closer and closer to the edge of my seat, and then a saw Tracy starting a pass. I like Paul very much, but my heart sank. But then I saw that the track was yellow and I was dancing around the room like a child. I didn't see any controversy and was surprised that there was one. Congratulations to Roger for a cool dozen!

By-the-way, all of you were invited to my house to watch the race and none of you showed up. So I had to drink ALL of the beer that I brought in!

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by macdaddy
The announcers stated during the race that when the yellow comes out, all racing must immediately cease, and the running order reverts to that of the previous lap. So even had Tracy completed the pass before the crash, it likely would have been disallowed anyway.

Originally posted by SevenGrain
That's actually a CART rule, but it came up during the Paul Tracy press conference. The IRL rules are a bit vague when it comes to positioning. It simply states that all drivers must stop racing as soon as the yellow is displayed.

Originally posted by macdaddy
I don't agree with "racing to the line" on yellows. What if the leaders were on the backstretch when a wreck occured in turn four? They'd race right into it.

I agree the NASCAR rule is dumb, but as I've shown above, it doesn't appear that IRL does that. In my opinion, their middle ground (if I'm interpreting it correctly) makes more sense than either the "race to the line" position or the "last lap's qualification" rule.

Bolstering this interpretation is the fact that *all* the news sources are focusing on the question "when, exactly did the yellow fly?"

[Dickie Thrust]

Surely the rule can't be the position your in when the yellow comes out thats it? What a dumb rule. You need a video on every running car, a video on every yellow signal point and a clock to know how to tie them together. Its got to be when the cars last took the start/finish/timing line that defines the order.

[paul-collins]

True enough, for road courses, telemetry would have to be exquisite (although any passing after the yellow is announced surely could be spotted by marshals). The rule is workable from an IRL standpoint, though, because the entire track is visible to the officials.

Anyway, if IRL were to announce that they were going to interpret their rule as DT has suggested, only the most paranoid conspiracy-theorists and Paul Tracy fans (I'm in the latter) would say it was a way to reward the Cap'n and slap CART. Since it's the CART rule, Team Green would have a hard time arguing against the rule - they could only dispute the vague writing of it.

[djb]

Paul, thanks for the info regarding the '95 race, I had not seen it, and didn't get the reference. I was mentioning this as I took the comment to mean that that was an IRL/George rule.

and from that, I will now go to some sites and see if the "when the yellow lights came on" controversey is still on.

[djb]

One other thing, whatever really happened, or whatever ends up being stated, at least Tracy and Green were gracious enough with what they had to say, going from the little I saw on the tube at the time, and from the bits I just read now from various sites.

[Aussie 05]

It's just going to become one of those things. Who won we may never know. But hey.

I have seen no slowmo or extra footage so i can't really make a definant stance.

Kanaan must be feeling so sick out in front flying then he's backwards in the wall, imagine what must have been going through his mind as he headed backwards into the wall. SH*T!

[paul-collins]

Yeah, and it looked like something broke on Scheckter's car, as well. Wonderful runs they both were having. But I guess that's why they run the full 500.

[Jordi]

How slow the yellow flag came when a CART driver was upfront and how fast the yellow flag came when a IRL driver was uder threat from a CART driver...........

[paul-collins]

Now that it's been announced that Tracy didn't get the pass done in time, I have to say I'm disappointed. I don't know that I can say I'm surprised, as the only replays I've seen are the ones that were associated with the original broadcast (apparently ESPN has compiled some better stuff, but it's not available up in Canada). What I've seen lends to the decision to not change things (as the evidence is not compelling or even clear). It'll be interesting to see what comes out over the next few days.

In the meantime, I wonder if Kool/Green are busy printing up "Indianapolis 500 winner - 2002" posters... I know they'd sell like crazy in Toronto. I'd buy one.

[mac]

There was no way known that George was going to allow a CART team to win for the 3rd year straight. To be honest, I don't know. But I was cheering for Paul in those last few laps.

And for Kanaan and Scheckter (particularly Tony) - what might have been!?

[mac]

Also, I don't care what anyone says - the IRL cars are the ugliest single-seater race cars I have ever seen. The angle of the top of the sidepods look good, but other than that they are U-G-L-Y, they ain't got no alibi, they ugly!

[zealot]

ESPN had conclusive video on their RPM2Night show Sunday night. The video clearly shows Tracy ahead of Castroneves when the yellow caution light comes on in the corner.

In addition, both Franchitti (Tracy's teammate) and Sam Hornish said they saw Tracy make the pass before the caution was out.

[paul-collins]

I wonder why Team Green didn't have that video, or why it didn't sway IRL?

Also, I wonder why this RPM2Night video hasn't shown up on their website. Don't want to bite the hand? They have what they're calling the "initial confirmation of Castroneves' win" there, but my cnx isn't fast enough at work and I can't seem to save the clip.

[macdaddy]

I haven't been able to look at the website's videos, either. The only one that I've really seen is ABC's split-screen showing the crash in synchronization with the pass, and at least four seconds transpired between the two. I'm thinking that the IRL has an incar video from one of the cars, as they maintain that the dashboard yellows came on while Helio was leading. Here's the ruling:

Hearing Decision

It is indisputable that Car #3 led Car #26 at the following relevant times:

1) At the last time line of scoring before the caution;

2) At the time of the accident of Car #34 and Car #91;

3) At the time that the race Officials called for a caution.

The facts demonstrate that Car #3 led Car #26 when the caution light on the race car dashboard turned yellow. There is also evidence that Car #3’s response to the yellow permitted the subsequent pass by Car #26. The evidence presented on behalf of the protest does not support the contention that the race Officials did not exercise appropriate discretion in determining that racing had ceased prior to Car #26’s pass on Car #3. The protest is therefore denied.

Team Green may appeal the decision within five business days, Monday, June 3, according to Section 12.1 of the 2002 Indy Racing League Rule Book.

[Jordi]

the three points they say are nonsense. The important point is when the drivers saw the lights.

[macdaddy]

I'd say that the important point is "when the caution light on the race car dashboard turned yellow." When they saw the light is irrevelant.

[macdaddy]

But it seems like I'm a minority in my thinking. ESPN's having a poll, and after over 14000 votes, it's 54% PT, 36% HCN, and 10% think it's too close to call.
http://rpm.espn.go.com/rpm/seriesIndex?series=irl

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by macdaddy
Hearing Decision

It is indisputable that Car #3 led Car #26 at the following relevant times:

1) At the last time line of scoring before the caution;

2) At the time of the accident of Car #34 and Car #91;

3) At the time that the race Officials called for a caution.

The facts demonstrate that Car #3 led Car #26 when the caution light on the race car dashboard turned yellow.

<conspiracy>Is point number 3 demonstrable? I haven't seen any evidence of it.</conspiracy>

[zealot]

No, point #3 is NOT demonstrable. The only thing that matters is when the yellow light appeared ON THE TRACK. The time of the accident, the scoring line, when officials called for the yellow, the light on the dashboard, all mean NOTHING. The yellow light is the same as the yellow flag, it is the only thing that matters.

The IRL rulebook says that positions are cemented when the yellow appears on the track - not when the accident occurs, not on the last green lap, not at the scoring line, and certainly not when race officials call for the yellow. The following is word for word from the 2000 rulebook.

"7.14 Yellow Flag (Caution) - The yellow caution period starts with the display of the yellow flag and/or yellow lights and ends with the display of the green flag and/or green lights. Racing ceases immediately upon display of the yellow flag and/or yellow light."

I don't care when Castroneves quit racing, the rules says "Racing ceases immediately upon display of the yellow flag and/or yellow light." It doesn't mention the time of the accident or when lights appear on the drivers' dashboard.

[macdaddy]

What zealot says is inarguable. But the IRL has said that the dashboard yellows come on simulatneously to the track lights.

[paul-collins]

And, in fact, may come on faster (incandescent lights powered by land lines, as opposed to LEDs responding to speed-of-light signals). But that's a herring.

Castroneves in his first interview said when the light came on he thought he was out of fuel. Later interviews had him switch to saying that light was on due to the yellow. Seems to me either he didn't know his instrumentation or the facts are being made up. His description of the pass varies, as well.

I don't blame him. He wants to keep the trophy.

That's why telemetry and video are so important. Take the emotion out of the decision. Prove that Tracy won, and he won. If you can't show where the cars were when the yellow came on, come clean, say so, and say that based on lack of evidence the original decision stands. Don't say that some facts, one of which isn't verifiable based on what's been released, lead to another conclusion - one which, according to the rules cited above, has no immediate bearing on the decision, but upon which you're awarding the trophy.

Phew.

[macdaddy]

I don't know how they've come to the conclusion that the dashlights were yellow before the pass. Did Tracy's car have an onboard camera? Or any of the cars immediately behind them? I don't think the Penskes have ever had cameras. I've emailed the IRL asking them what evidence they have to support the statement: "The facts demonstrate that Car #3 led Car #26 when the caution light on the race car dashboard turned yellow."

[zealot]

macdaddy
If the IRL responds (fat chance!) you might ask them what difference it makes? From video, we know EXACTLY what time the light showed up on the track. The whole dashboard light controversy may just be a way of turning a very black and white situation into a one where an arbitrator (Tony George) has to make a subjective decision.

[macdaddy]

I hope my arguments aren't some day going to make me look stupid. But until now I have not seen any video which conclusively shows any yellow lights whatsoever, be them on the dash or on the track. I really wish that I could find any ESPN videos online, as so far I've only seen ABC's live coverage. Thankfully I had it on videotape so I was able to review what went on to some extent. And it seemed to me that Tracy didn't get ahead of Helio until at least four seconds after the crash.

Crash!!!
One hippopotamos.
Two hippopotamos.
Three hippopotamos.
Four hippopotamos.
Pass!!!

Surely the lights would have been yellow in that amount of time, is all I'm saying. Usually on ovals like this the yellow light is on within a split second of the initial impact. Man! I wish the videos were more conclusive, or that the IRL would release what they have. I'd really like to know what Barry Green knows.