the grid girl debate

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The grid/podium girls are there mainly for males to ogle at, just as were/are the girls used to drape across the bonnets of cars at motor shows. And, in my opinion, it has no place in modern society; in fact, it never did have a place. It is just demeaning to women.

Well summed up, in a short paragraph.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

IMO - grid girls should go. They add absolutely nothing what so ever to the show or sport. And I'd make an argument that glamour is possibly the worst thing that could happen to F1 anyway. Give me a half dirty Sebring tent any day over the glamour of F1.

Whilst in the air today, it came to my mind that the aviation industry is an example of where the stereotypical 'trolley-dolley' has moved on massively and cabin crew (on the whole) are given the respect they deserve for doing so much more than look pretty.

So my thought is, rather than simply asking if grid girls should stay in F1 - the whole role of an individual on the grid should be reviewed.
Perhaps the situation would be more correct if the people were used for much more within the team(s), including being brand ambassadors, having a hospitality and service role, and that gender was irrelevant?

If we had an insight into the behind the scenes work (as airlines have done), and saw that they also had a wider contribution to the running of an event, then perhaps the job would be seen as so much more than just being employed for your body?

[bella]

at one event last season, formula e used young karters from the country (was it the new york rounds?) as grid people, overalls and all. that seemed like a far more positive solution than a bunch of girls in skirts.

meanwhile, thousands of races manage to organise a grid fine without somebody standing there with a sign.

going to split the thread out as suggested to allow the conversation to continue.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bella

meanwhile, thousands of races manage to organise a grid fine without somebody standing there with a sign.

A recent BBC podcast described the early grid girls as being required as the drivers were on their own once they left pitlane. Clearly there was a reason for their existence back then, that is not relevant today. Hence why I wonder if there is a different role that could be fulfilled, which also provides a focal person at the front of the grid box?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A recent BBC podcast described the early grid girls as being required as the drivers were on their own once they left pitlane. Clearly there was a reason for their existence back then, that is not relevant today. Hence why I wonder if there is a different role that could be fulfilled, which also provides a focal person at the front of the grid box?

Make that person a fan. Run competitions, 20 people for every race get VIP treatment and get to be the grid person. Imagine the positive PR for that.

Makeup and lycra is not a requirement either.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Make that person a fan.

The grid girl they had on the show was exactly that - a fan who saw it as a way of getting involved in motorsport. She is also a full season grid girl for a BTCC team, and definitely sees herself as part of the team in BTCC, but not as included on the F1 grid.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bella

last year, i was ambivalent towards grid girls. whatever, they're making bank and it makes men look pretty pathetic for not being able to appreciate a sport without some trophy women parading around.

this year i'm the exact opposite. i've seen so many little girls watching me and other girls doing hands-on jobs working alongside the guys this year. when i was growing up the only jobs that i saw women doing in f1 was being a press officer, making the tea, being a wife, or being a grid girl. now little girls growing up can see women in pretty much every single area of the sport, doing pretty much every job out there for different teams. if seeing me work has made even one young woman broaden her potential career path then that's awesome.

it counters the idea that to get close to the sport otherwise you have to be tall, skinny, attractive and wear more makeup than all of little mix put together.

I'll admit to enjoying seeing the grid girls at races when I was younger. Got a lot pictures that attest to that..... But since having a daughter, man am I changing. I wouldn't mind seeing them gone. I don't want her going to races with me and seeing those girls and thinking that is a possible choice. Not that I go f1 races, but they're at imsa races and all others too. I've already told her no being a cheerleader for similar reasons: you don't cheer for boys, they cheer for you. Lol.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Make that person a fan. Run competitions, 20 people for every race get VIP treatment and get to be the grid person. Imagine the positive PR for that.

Makeup and lycra is not a requirement either.

Wow, that idea is so sensible, it could never happen in F1......

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The grid girl they had on the show was exactly that - a fan who saw it as a way of getting involved in motorsport. She is also a full season grid girl for a BTCC team, and definitely sees herself as part of the team in BTCC, but not as included on the F1 grid.

But realistically she wasn't "exactly" that. She was able to do that because she was a good looking female. If she had been unfortunate with her looks, overweight, or even male, it would not have been an option. That's not really what I'd suggest is a good way of including fans.

Run an online competition. Exclude nobody. Pick at random 20 people, who get to bring 2 extra guests (so a 10 year old gets to bring his parents). The winners gets to be a grid person (assigned to a car at random), and the winners and guests get VIP treatment for the weekend. Turn a negative into a positive. Seems like a simple solution, whilst getting some great positive PR. Think of how good that wee kid getting to meet Kimi was. Imagine 20 of those, every weekend. You'd make peoples year. It'd be amazing.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Wow, that idea is so sensible, it could never happen in F1......

It has been done in BTCC - of which I personally have been a recipient courtesy of Honda.

In the American sports arena, do they have 'mascots' in the same vein that football players are usually accompanied by youngsters?

[bella]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The grid girl they had on the show was exactly that - a fan who saw it as a way of getting involved in motorsport. She is also a full season grid girl for a BTCC team, and definitely sees herself as part of the team in BTCC, but not as included on the F1 grid.

i wonder whether the team feel like she's a part of it. glad she gets something out of her work other than frostbite, but i have a feeling she's paid more than some of the weekend day rate folk actually working on the cars...

worked one event where my employers uses grid/promotional girls. chose to work anything other than that series again for that reason. they were a pain in the backside - took up our seating space in the truck, stank the trailer out, and wore dresses with a miniscule logo on. either the brand was embarassed to have them, or they're terrible at marketing. no leaflets to hand out, nothing. i don't think anyone other than us would have noticed if they weren't there. in their defence, they did realise they were an inconvenience but so are the data engineers, and they do at least make the tea

as a follow up: pro tip to any grid girls. if you want to feel a part of a team, bring a couple of packs of digestives and make tea in your downtime instead of hanging out in the bogs touching up your makeup talking loudly about your darren. it's not your job but even the grumpiest of old farts won't turn down a brew.

[coppice]

They are an anachronism and look absurd . I remember seeing a British GT round at Oulton a few years ago with some girls trussed up like turkeys , thigh high boots etc - and it was about 40F . It looked utterly ridiculous and , frankly , embarrassing for all concerned.

F1 might just be realising , albeit forty years late, that it is not forever 1975. .

[Graz]

I think the issue with grid (and podium) girls in the first instance is the dress or lack thereof they are made to nearly wear. While flags, names, sponsor details etc need holding, there should be no need to do so while wearing next to nothing. It's kind of ironic that it's fine for these girls to wear little but the teams go nuts about losing wings and fins because it removes sponsor space. I don't know how sponsors fit on some of the outfits the girls are forced to wear.

Personally it puts me off the thing being advertised when there's a half naked girl advertising it, more so when it's freezing cold. It's just so unnecessary.

In football there are mascots and these are not girls in Lycra but kids in replica kit.

If there is a need for someone to stand there, it shouldn't be a half naked model. It could be men, kids etc and appropriately dressed. If the thing is to see sponsors, regular clothes do that. I've never seen anyone walking around in replica grid girl kit for instance.

It's supposed to be an inclusive society these days so if people are needed to stand around holding things, open it to anyone and wear clothes with sponsor decals - replica overalls, jackets, t shirts etc.

[bella]

Originally Posted by coppice

They are an anachronism and look absurd . I remember seeing a British GT round at Oulton a few years ago with some girls trussed up like turkeys , thigh high boots etc - and it was about 40F . It looked utterly ridiculous and , frankly , embarrassing for all concerned.

my feelings exactly about the majority of the outfits on the btcc grid. one or two teams have some classy outfits that flatter the girls, the rest opt for something that makes nobody look good and at worst is indecent and offensive through no fault of the ladies themselves.

Originally Posted by Graz

I think the issue with grid (and podium) girls in the first instance is the dress or lack thereof they are made to nearly wear. While flags, names, sponsor details etc need holding, there should be no need to do so while wearing next to nothing. It's kind of ironic that it's fine for these girls to wear little but the teams go nuts about losing wings and fins because it removes sponsor space. I don't know how sponsors fit on some of the outfits the girls are forced to wear.

Personally it puts me off the thing being advertised when there's a half naked girl advertising it, more so when it's freezing cold. It's just so unnecessary.

It's supposed to be an inclusive society these days so if people are needed to stand around holding things, open it to anyone and wear clothes with sponsor decals - replica overalls, jackets, t shirts etc.

it's partly the dress, but a lot of it is in the placement too. something they're keen on in the states is podium girls, literally trophy women present for the top three. so if you win, you get a girl, huh? how about trying a better way of getting the brand seen other than across the breasts and down the leg of a cheerleader in lycra?

i absolutely agree on the inclusive aspect of this. going on the grid representing a team is pretty cool, and everyone should be able to experience it at least once in their lives. also everyone should have to experience the horror that is most team kit once in their lives too

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It is just demeaning to women.

I'm fairly ambivalent about grid people, but most of the arguments seem to ignore what the girls think. If the women doing it thought it was demeaning, would they do it? I have no idea as I am not a woman.

Originally Posted by wnut

WEC Lemans Pre-Grid 2017

I think there are 4 women including Maria S in the photo, such inclusion.

Guess she should not be there as she is purely promotional in this setting.

In that picture, in that year, it could also be argued that the inclusion of Webber was purely promotional as well.

Originally Posted by Graz

I think the issue with grid (and podium) girls in the first instance is the dress or lack thereof they are made to nearly wear.

I didn't realise these girls were forced to go almost naked against their will. I thought that would be illegal.

I like the sentiment of having the average Joe or Jane promote sponsor's products but most companies want their products displayed in the most positive way. Unfortunately the way the world is at the moment, sex and beauty sells products. This is slowly changing, maybe not fast enough for some.

As an aside I work in an industry that supplies hotels and pubs. Some of these employ women (and about 2 that employ men) to wear scanty clothing. I have spoken to some of these ladies and they like their job and many of the patrons seem to as well. Who am I to tell them they shouldn't do it because because it makes other people uncomfortable?

That being said, I am old and maybe my way of looking at it is going the way of the dinosaurs.

[bella]

Originally Posted by dsg

I'm fairly ambivalent about grid people, but most of the arguments seem to ignore what the girls think. If the women doing it thought it was demeaning, would they do it? I have no idea as I am not a woman.

it's kind of irrelevant what the girls doing the job think. the core of the discussion isn't about low pay, unfair working practices and that kind of thing. it's an outward-looking issue, not an inward looking one. i mean, the monster girls are absolutely stunning, and look like they have an absolute ball for example. but monster use girls and extreme sport to market their product and build a lifestyle. red bull didn't need to use women to sell products. they used sportspeople and life role models (hey, some people aspire to jump off mountains in squirrel suits).

one of the benefits is probably something the girls themselves wouldn't talk about. it's an ego boost having photos taken and an ego boost getting the attention from the competitors and teams. it's a status boost when people put you up on a pedestal when you're at work, and your social media profile gets a boost as well if you choose to use it that way. but in the same way that basing your self-worth on your social media exchanges is a recipe for insecurity and thirsting for more likes, being on that pedestal can have a negative effect as well. that's been a far greater factor since instagram and tinder became popular, vast swathes of youth culture now revolve around image and self-marketing.

Originally Posted by dsg

I like the sentiment of having the average Joe or Jane promote sponsor's products but most companies want their products displayed in the most positive way. Unfortunately the way the world is at the moment, sex and beauty sells products. This is slowly changing, maybe not fast enough for some.

not wanting to state the obvious, but for things to change, changes have to be made i agree about the sentiment of having normal people promote a brand being tricky. it would need to be part of a wider social media attitude which is possible nowadays. back before social media it wasn't.

the whole discussion seems to be a bit like the consent and sexual assault issues in wider society. some men (and fewer women) argue that it was acceptable "back then" for guys to be handsy, or women to be used in promotion. but then if you speak to women, they had their own network to make sure everyone knew who the handsy executives were. or in the case of jimmy saville, the kids on the ground knew he was a bit weird and to stay away from him. so it WASN'T acceptable, not to the victims/potential victims. they didn't have a voice to express it, and they were brushed off by those in authority. the problem wasn't that things were socially acceptable, but that decision makers weren't of the opinion that it was worth tolerating. they were, of course, all men from a particular culture.

i think you'd find that it's a similar situation with using women to sell motorsport. it's pretty uncool with at least 50% of the population, if not more. but that 50% is only being listened to recently. as far as a lot of men are concerned it's simply another breach of their entitlement to women's bodies.

my sincere apologies for being very wordy in my responses in this thread, but since a lot of posts express a lack of understanding about the female points of view i feel duty bound to try and explain one of them

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by wnut

that's a weird looking kitchen.

[bella]

Originally Posted by FAS33

that's a weird looking kitchen.

well played

[steve_r]

It's cheesy. Let's move on. Grid girls belong to the era of Benny Hill.

At the London 2012 Olympics, young aspiring athletes carried the competitors stuff around for them. Some of them turned out to be Olympic athletes themselves in Rio. Why cant F1 do something similar?

[wnut]

Carolina Panthers appoint Tina Becker Chief Operating Officer.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKBN1EC2T6

"The Panthers said Becker, who started as a cheerleader, will be one of the highest-ranking female executives at an NFL team."

[F1Pete]

If only the grid girls could also race an F1 car....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by F1Pete

If only the grid girls could also race an F1 car...

Sponsored by a Brewery or Distilling Company

[BSchneiderFan]

I'd be interested to know what grid girls do the rest of the time. It seems to me that if, as I suspect many are, they're professional models, then they're earning a living from their looks. It would be rather a different kettle of fish if the circuit organisers got Claire Williams or Monisha Kaltenborn to dress in short skirts.

[Armco Bender]

I'd be interested to know what grid girls do the rest of the time.

After a hard day out in latex and stockings I usually go home to my day job and tend the sheep or drive my tractor.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

After a hard day out in latex and stockings I usually go home to my day job and tend the sheep or drive my tractor.

It's not unusual to have two jobs these days.