Salary cap, Shmalary Cap

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Wonder how long till the name of the team slips out. I wouldn't want to be the FIA in this situation

It's two teams. RB and AM.

[Casper]

I think it was Toto who made a very good point is his statement, if a team used unauthorised spending and developed their car it gives them an advantage year on year. It was this scenario that allowed MB to dominate for so long because they had a huge advantage that took years to pull back and that was without a budget cap. Horner only managed to peg them back by using Honda's withdrawing from F1 to basically take apart a lot of Mercedes advantage through rule changes and buying a lot of MB's staff which was a very clever move and he should be congratulated on a good campaign because that is what it was. Toto obviously did not give RB credit for what was happening and it has bitten him on the bum and his team are now behind in the development race.

I think any budget penalty should be applied forward and not to the year just gone. Pull 50 points out of a team's CURRENT championship points both drivers and constructors and I bet money they toe the line.

[bathurst77]

Will SKyF1 just showed a very angry Christian saying RB are clean and DEMANDING Wolf retracts or legal action is possible. So clearly RB is one "persons of interest" and AM (a mercedes team) is the other.

[bathurst77]

And its belting rain at the track right now so practice is on hold, so Im thinking we will get an hour or so of every man and his dog having a say on this.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So he mentions them, but doesn't make any claim that they are in breach of anything.

The links between potential teams and Toto/MB accusing RB are being made by the press for the sake of their articles.
What is missing is the context of Toto's quoted comments - they may have been in response to a direct question about Horner.

They call it dog whistling.

[chillibowl]

How many teams are even spending the full cap amount?

Merc Ferrari and RB for sure. Would hope McLaren and Alpine are but doubt they are investing enough to be massively over. Could be AM with their new ownership group but doubt Merc is calling out a customer. Doubt anyone would bother with AT, AR, Williams or Haas.

So if Merc is talking it’s either about Ferrari or RB and they only seem to ever get this worked up over RB…so it’s RB right?

that or since the championships are over they are generating a nothing story and acting like it’s the end of the world?

[Anyopenroad]

This is brilliant, peak forum. Two teams cheat, it leaks from the FIA and Toto Wolff is the one being flamed.

[seanyb505]

Toto confirmed today that they also had to cut George's salary, and it cost him q3 this weekend.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So he mentions them, but doesn't make any claim that they are in breach of anything.

Yep, makes the claim quite clearly - when told that Horner had said that RB is under the cap, Toto said "maybe he doesn't speak to his CFO" - very clear claim RB is not under the cap.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Yep, makes the claim quite clearly - when told that Horner had said that RB is under the cap, Toto said "maybe he doesn't speak to his CFO" - very clear claim RB is not under the cap.

Having not seen the interview - what was the actual question posed to Toto, and how was it worded?

As before - I'm not saying he hasn't said it, just that I have only seen his quotes out of context, without knowing the question(s) he is responding to.

I note that Sky F1's video jumps back and forth between interviews. This gives the impression that each team's comments are in response to the other, but the statements are being shown out of sequence.

[steve_r]

Horner was rather robust and assertive in his defence to the allegations. Quite how anyone knows is beyond me. Even if there is substance to this rumour, someones head needs to roll if they are leaking this stuff to the press and other teams. I would rather this is dealt with properly IF & when they fail the test. Not anyones finest hour.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Quite how anyone knows is beyond me. Even if there is substance to this rumour, someones head needs to roll if they are leaking this stuff to the press and other teams. I would rather this is dealt with properly IF & when they fail the test. Not anyones finest hour.

Agree - that's the biggest issue in all this kerfuffle to me - someone at the FIA is leaking information out that shouldn't be getting out until a final outcome is reached and announced - very unprofessional and very poor form.

In the meantime, I assume that fines fall outside the cost cap but not sure if I'm right. If I'm wrong, that's a 25,000 Euro nose stud and another hit to the team's spending limit.

[Adam43]

Isn’t the biggest issue whether the cost cap has been breached by these two teams?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Isn’t the biggest issue whether the cost cap has been breached by these two teams?

It will be IF they've breached and it's announced - which is how a competent and professional governing body would handle it.

This leaking beforehand is really poor form - particularly in a process that is meant to be confidential between each team and the FIA.

If there are teams in breach, that'll be a big deal and no doubt we'll all be talking about it on here but right now, the biggest issue is how a supposedly professional governing body has leaked info that may or may not be the final outcome.

[bathurst77]

If FIA says no breaches found, questions must be asked about Toto. Is this a mind game he is playing to mess with RB and distract Christian from the task at hand?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Tourer

It will be IF they've breached and it's announced - which is how a competent and professional governing body would handle it.

That it was leaked is regrettable, but the potential of IF is still more the story.

IF NOT then the story will be why it was leaked.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

If FIA says no breaches found, questions must be asked about Toto.

Why - what has he done that needs to be questioned?

From the BBC (location checks out):

"Ferrari have been careful not to name Red Bull at all in their comments. And while Wolff has mentioned his bitter rivals in his answers, he has not directly accused them of breaking the cap, even if that could be inferred from some of his answers.

The closest he came was in an interview with Sky television on Saturday.

In this, when asked about Red Bull team principal Christian Horner saying he was "not aware" of any breaches, Wolff said: "It's funny that Christian says that because it's weeks and months that they are being investigated, so maybe he doesn't speak to his CFO.""

[PhilipR]

It is interesting that other team principals are saying there has been open knowledge of breach from a team(hinting it is red bull) and red bull trying to defend but it seems a bit weak. At no point has Red Bull shut down the rumours saying we did not overspend and if anybody has the FIA should punish them. They are accusing other teams of defamatory remarks and querying how do others know about their returns and talking about it is an evolving practice and more regulations will come from learning. Also Max now saying others should shut up about it(just like Max's remarks about Ferrari illegal engines in 2019)

But in all honesty if this does turn out to be true - I would feel bad for Max/ this might end up tainting his achievements for last year and this year and it would be unfair on him considering he has driven brialliantly. I am sure FIA will not retrospectively change results in case of transgressions but it will still taint a little bit

Also if Red Bull are indeed found out to have broken the budget cap - but keep 2021 and 2022 titles - could this incentives others to do the same? I mean 2 championships wins are still something an maybe well worth the penalty

[E.B]

As I understand it no team has yet received their certificate of compliance so when they are issued next week there may well be a number (a lot) higher than 2 have breached..... they are obviously (I would imagine) all hiding costs in obscure places to hide spend.

People in glass houses....

[greentrumpet]

Of course it might be all about the "show" starring Toto Wolff as Dick Dastardly and Christine Horner as Penelope Pitstop.

[Akrapovic]

What is included in the cost cap? Is jewellery included?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

What is included in the cost cap? Is jewellery included?

Only if it involves a change of nose......

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by greentrumpet

Of course it might be all about the "show" starring Toto Wolff as Dick Dastardly and Christine Horner as Penelope Pitstop.

Ah, it was Christian and Toto who were at the Revival the other weekend then.......

https://www.flickr.com/photos/47778916@N00/52366680211/

[BTCC frog]

Okay, very controversial opinion here, but

If Red Bull have indeed broken the budget cap rules in 2021 (and obviously that is by no means a certainty), they simply have to have their championship (even though it was drivers not constructors) taken away. It is the only way to police the rule properly, because the only reasonable alternative is a massive penalty that causes them to have an awful 2023 season, but I suspect that some teams would prefer to be champions one year and finish 6th than finish 2nd or 3rd twice.

Yes, it would look bad for the sport, but in the long term it would look far less bad than having teams cheat every year by breaking the budget cap and winning the title, then getting relatively minor punishments.

[Derwent]

The danger is that Red Bull could decide to walk away from the sport, or even look to create a rival series. They have a huge amount of financial clout.