WSBK on Channel 4 for 2005

[SALEEN S7R]

What?! BSB is the bigger series, just look at the entry lists. The teams are better, and theres more entries. The same applies to BSS compared to WSS - the BSB package is in general a much stronger package than WSBK im afraid. Kagayama finished 3rd in last years BSB championship and hes currently leading the WSBK championship quite commandingly, imagine what would happen if u put Reynolds or Rutter in WSBK. The ONLY thing that WSBK has over BSB is the circuits, the BSB tracks arent as good ill admit, but IMO thats the only thing WSBK has over them. Its a credit to the BSB series that Sky Sports will be covering every race live, and BSS and the Yamaha R6 cup too. Not to mention the BBC's live coverage of some events, like last year.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

imagine what would happen if u put Reynolds or Rutter in WSBK.

Suzuki imagined it, and chose Kagayama over Reynolds. JR has experience and knowledge of the UK circuits, but was never considered for an international ride, not least because he has no hope of improving further. BSB may have a bigger field (may not though), but WSBK has a much more impressive range of candidates - Vermeulen, Corser, Toseland, Haga, Abe, Walker, Chili, Laconi etc. Would any of those prefer to race in any domestic championship than WSBK?

[ATF]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

The ONLY thing that WSBK has over BSB is the circuits, the BSB tracks arent as good ill admit, but IMO thats the only thing WSBK has over them.

The other thing is that it is an international championship, which BSB is not so for world class riders like boots has mentioned, it keeps them on the world scene. And although the BSB line-up is strong, you still know it will be Rutter and Reynolds at the top again.

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Suzuki imagined it, and chose Kagayama over Reynolds. JR has experience and knowledge of the UK circuits, but was never considered for an international ride, not least because he has no hope of improving further.

Remember the rumours of Rizla Suzuki going to WSBK 2004? JR stated then he was not interesting in competing in WSBK and wanted to stay in BSB. I'm not saying he had the option to race for Alstare but maybe he just never wanted/expected to.

[SALEEN S7R]

BSB is the stronger series, simple as that. As for world class riders, Reynolds and Rutter are IMO defintly amongst the best out there, not to mention Smart, Plater, Emmet etc. And with ex Moto GP star Jeremey Mcwilliams back in the series the grid is looking even stronger. Reynolds and Rutter 1st and 2nd again ATF? Fancy putting your money where ur mouth is? Im seeing a Rizla Suzuki 1-2 in the BSB championship this year, Smart coming in 2nd just behind Reynolds.

[chunder]

Oh my word, are they showing BSB on Channel 4 aswell! I didnt know this, i thought the Beeb had only stopped showing WSB.
Well that is a disaster for the BSB teams because they have surely been revelling in the prime time coverage, but i suppose they are banking Sky money for the program fronted by Keith Huewen.
This is a disaster for British bikesport on the whole i have to say, fair enough maybe for WSB the fugures may have been down for the last couple of years, but BSB has been awesome! And for that not to be on any terrestrial channel worth watching is a disaster

[SALEEN S7R]

Whos said though that BSB wont still be on the BBC? Could it not be that the BBC have the terrestiral rights to show the races live and Channel 4 have the highlights package, like Channel 4 does with WSBK?

[racer69]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

BSB is the stronger series, simple as that. As for world class riders, Reynolds and Rutter are IMO defintly amongst the best out there, not to mention Smart, Plater, Emmet etc. And with ex Moto GP star Jeremey Mcwilliams back in the series the grid is looking even stronger. Reynolds and Rutter 1st and 2nd again ATF? Fancy putting your money where ur mouth is? Im seeing a Rizla Suzuki 1-2 in the BSB championship this year, Smart coming in 2nd just behind Reynolds.

Your having a joke here surely.

There is no doubt the British Superbike Championship is a strong series, but while last year it was probably line ball with WSB, this year it pales in comparison.

The series was dominated by a pair of veterans! Only Kagayama and to an extent Scott Smart were anywhere near the front. Emmett and Kyonari mucked about all year (but yes i know they got some wins each) Where would Kagayama have been if he didn't miss some races due to injury?

Look at round 1 of this years WSB. Suzuki and Ducati showed they are geniune race winners out of the box. The Honda's were crippled by ill riders, and the Yamaha's managed to lead a race.

Doesn't it signify the level of competition in BSB if you are already predicting a Rizla 1-2? (Even more so that you think Reynolds could finish in the top 2 despite a broken leg and missed rounds)

[BootsOntheSide]

World Superbikes is a long way ahead now, despite Haslam and McWilliams joining the British field - I'd rate Kaga above either of them anyway. The notion that Plater or Emmett are as good as even the WSBK midfield seems pretty strange to me, and the facts really don't bear it out. If anything GSE have the best lineup this year, two riders have have shone at times on the international stage, but other than Haydon and Haslam there's hardly anyone who can do the job on the world scene.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by racer69

Your having a joke here surely.

There is no doubt the British Superbike Championship is a strong series, but while last year it was probably line ball with WSB, this year it pales in comparison.

The series was dominated by a pair of veterans! Only Kagayama and to an extent Scott Smart were anywhere near the front. Emmett and Kyonari mucked about all year (but yes i know they got some wins each) Where would Kagayama have been if he didn't miss some races due to injury?

Look at round 1 of this years WSB. Suzuki and Ducati showed they are geniune race winners out of the box. The Honda's were crippled by ill riders, and the Yamaha's managed to lead a race.

Doesn't it signify the level of competition in BSB if you are already predicting a Rizla 1-2? (Even more so that you think Reynolds could finish in the top 2 despite a broken leg and missed rounds)

Reynolds I agree is a Veteran, but Rutter? I dont know, he isnt that old. Early 30s? And Rutter may well have won the championship last year had it not been for him having to contend with a new bike and a new team. And if those 2 are veterans, what do u call Corser and Laconi? Corser is 33 and Laconi is now 29, nearing 30. Oh and lets not forget Chris walker who is 33 this month and not forgetting Chili who is nearing 41. Not exactly spring chickens. Id suggest u look at the WBSK rider ages before picking holes in the BSB series rider ages.

And yes, i am predicting a Rizla 1-2. But maybe I let my heart rule my head a little, Rizla Suzuki are my home team, being only a 15 minute drive away from my house so I naturally give them my support, just like i do our champion speedway team Poole pirates. In all honesty though, sure the Rizla Suzuki's are going to be right up there, but who knows if they will win or not? They are going to have VERY strong competition, not least from HM, GSE and Monstermob and maybe the Hawk Kawaski's too.

Theres as much manufacturer support in BSB this year as there is in WSBK this year, the differnce is BSB has bigger grids, oh and a few tracks that arent quite up to WSBK standards, so id say the 2 series are just about equal all in all. But package wise the BSB series is stronger IMO, mainly due to the fact that the support races are more strongly contested than those of the WSBK package.

[SALEEN S7R]

Oh yeah, and I almost forgot. The BSB championship dosent have to use a control tyre to have close competitve racing, unlike certain other superbike championships I could think of.

[BootsOntheSide]

Those teams and riders would all get eaten alive in the world championship though. And I don't think there's a need for the control tyre in WSBK now that the grids are bigger and more competitive. It's worth remembering that Reynolds moved up to international racing, and didn't succeed so he came home, while Rutter has only really come to the front as guys like Hodgson, Bayliss and Byrne have moved on upwards - other than his wet-weather prowess he's not really one of the world's best.

[SALEEN S7R]

Hodgson has moved "onwards and upwards" has he? Last I heard he failed in Moto GP and was going to AMA with his tail between his legs. As for Byrne, where is he riding this year? And as has been said before, he did finish behind Mcwilliams in last years Moto GP championship, and Mcwilliams was on a inferior bike. Yet the competition is so strong and fierce Mcwilliams has chosen to move back to BSB for this year, why not WSBK? As for "those" riders getting "eaten alive" we do not know if that is the case Boots, maybe Reynolds as he is a bit old now to be learning new tracks etc. But Rutter, Smart, Kiyonari and Emmet? I dont know about that, they are all improving. Oh, and anyone remember WSBK rounds at Silverstone and Brands Hatch? The BSB boys hardly got their ass's kicked then did they, and sure whilst they run at Brands and Silverstone, they werent using the same layouts as they used in the WSBK races, and any good rider should be able to learn a track inside out inside say 30 laps IMO and get a good base line setup and as we know WSBK has plenty of practise laps available at each weekend so I dont see why they werent on the BSB boys pace.

This reminds me a lot of the WTCC v BTCC argument. On one side u have the BTCC fans saying that their drivers and teams are better or at least as good as the guys in the WTCC, and on the other side u have the WTCC fans saying "oh no they're not!" - but at the end of the day, the BTCC guys are. Like James Thompson proved in the BTCC and ETCC last year.

[BootsOntheSide]

If Emmett's improving, how bad was he before 2004? And I'm sure if a competitive WSBK team had wanted McWilliams, he'd've chosen them over BSB (assuming he thinks he can cut it, of course). He only beat Byrne last year because Shaky missed so many races, and Shaky should get the KR KTM ride - he'd've probably stayed with Aprillia if they hadn't pulled out.

The wildcard rides you mention have been impressive, but remember that riders in those are under no pressure and have nothing to lose, no championship to worry about. Remember Abe fighting for the win as a teenage wildcard at Suzuka some years ago, and rarely doing the same in a decade after that.

[Kicking-back]

At McWilliams age and stage of career, he may have opted for BSB because he simply no longer wishes to spend so much time travelling.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

At McWilliams age and stage of career, he may have opted for BSB because he simply no longer wishes to spend so much time travelling.

Yes it could be, but it isnt. As the man says himself. http://www.crash.net/uk/en/news_view...=18&nid=104876 And this is from a Moto GP star's point of view "BSB is second only to Moto GP and im thrilled to be racing here this season." Yes Boots, like u keep on saying if Shane Byrne hadnt broke his hand he could have finished ahead of Mcwilliams in the 2004 points standings, but he didnt, and thats all there is to it. Its a bit like saying Damon Hill would have been a 2 time world Champion had Michael Schumacher not punted him off, Schumacher did so we will never know. Dealing with the facts, Mcwilliams had a better season than Byrne in 2004 IMO, especially when u consider he finished ahead of Byrne on a bike that was vastly inferior.

[Alex Toropov]

I wonder, why Jeremy McWilliams was on a inferior bike last year, if they both (Jezza & Shakey) were on Prillers?!..
explain that fact, please, because i'm lost in conjectures

[SALEEN S7R]

Byrne was in a full factory effort Aprilla team and bike, MS racing who McWilliams rode for were not a full blown factory effort in the same way that Aprilla Racing was. Its a bit like saying that Gibernau didnt have a advantage over Biagi last year because they are both on Honda's, which obviously isnt the case because as we all know the Telefonica/Repsol Honda teams are the #1 Honda squad's, with Camel getting a lot of the development parts later.

All that is beside the by though, because McWilliams ultimately finished ahead of Byrne in the points standings. And even had Byrne not broken his hand theres nothing to say that he would have beaten McWilliams in the end.

[chunder]

Too true about wildcards Boots, I do remember Abe on his hom etrack on HIS bike shaking up Doohan and Schwantz then being average as was Okada to some extent and UKawa. Also guys like Foggy were wlasy good at Doningtion but I suppose it is unfair to pick him out as he never did a season.
What about Bayliss on that 250 Suzuki, he made a damn good career out of that ride! Gobert on the Honda way back in 93 or 94. And all the yanks like Duhamel in the early days, look how rubbish Mike Hale was when he rode in WSB.
Wild cards are all well and good but in a way I am glad they are not there anymore, it used to make a mockery of the world championship when the guys would go to Sugo and all the works riders would get beaten by all the Japanese factory guys on bikes that could get round the track on their own!
Here's another, Lucchi on the Aprilia (but he did win a GP! in Italy of course!)

[racer69]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Reynolds I agree is a Veteran, but Rutter? I dont know, he isnt that old. Early 30s? And Rutter may well have won the championship last year had it not been for him having to contend with a new bike and a new team. And if those 2 are veterans, what do u call Corser and Laconi? Corser is 33 and Laconi is now 29, nearing 30. Oh and lets not forget Chris walker who is 33 this month and not forgetting Chili who is nearing 41. Not exactly spring chickens. Id suggest u look at the WBSK rider ages before picking holes in the BSB series rider ages.

And yes, i am predicting a Rizla 1-2. But maybe I let my heart rule my head a little, Rizla Suzuki are my home team, being only a 15 minute drive away from my house so I naturally give them my support, just like i do our champion speedway team Poole pirates. In all honesty though, sure the Rizla Suzuki's are going to be right up there, but who knows if they will win or not? They are going to have VERY strong competition, not least from HM, GSE and Monstermob and maybe the Hawk Kawaski's too.

Theres as much manufacturer support in BSB this year as there is in WSBK this year, the differnce is BSB has bigger grids, oh and a few tracks that arent quite up to WSBK standards, so id say the 2 series are just about equal all in all. But package wise the BSB series is stronger IMO, mainly due to the fact that the support races are more strongly contested than those of the WSBK package.

I made no mention of rider ages. All is said was that Reynolds and Rutter have been around for quite a while (irrespective of Rutter's age, he's been a British Superbike regular since 1993). Where is the new guard coming to challenge them? Kagayama was the best bet, but he jumped ship for a better ride in his opinion....in WSB. Scott Smart is showing promise, as is Tommy Hill, but the rest seem to stagnant behind the leaders, never getting much further.

What about the rest, in a way it seems harder to lose a ride than get one. The likes of Sean Emmett, James Hayden and Steve Plater seem to play musical rides.

How competitive do you see the Monstermob team being? For starters they will be third in the pecking order, behind the factory team plus the Karl Harris' semi-works team.

I don't mean to talk down the series. I love watching it, over the summer here in Australia we have been treated to all the rounds of last years championship, and there was alot of fantastic racing, and i hope we get all the races this year.

World Superbikes has moved up many gears this year, with a whole host of new possibilities. As for the British series, it seems like the same game as last year, same people at the front (on different machinery though in some cases), and probably the same winners.

And i think you'll find the main motivation for a control tyre in WSB was for fairness across the board (as opposed to 2003, with Fila Ducati getting one set of Michelins, and the other Michelin runners an outdated tyre spec), rather than to specifically close up the times.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by racer69

I made no mention of rider ages. All is said was that Reynolds and Rutter have been around for quite a while (irrespective of Rutter's age, he's been a British Superbike regular since 1993). Where is the new guard coming to challenge them? Kagayama was the best bet, but he jumped ship for a better ride in his opinion....in WSB. Scott Smart is showing promise, as is Tommy Hill, but the rest seem to stagnant behind the leaders, never getting much further.

What about the rest, in a way it seems harder to lose a ride than get one. The likes of Sean Emmett, James Hayden and Steve Plater seem to play musical rides.

How competitive do you see the Monstermob team being? For starters they will be third in the pecking order, behind the factory team plus the Karl Harris' semi-works team.

I don't mean to talk down the series. I love watching it, over the summer here in Australia we have been treated to all the rounds of last years championship, and there was alot of fantastic racing, and i hope we get all the races this year.

World Superbikes has moved up many gears this year, with a whole host of new possibilities. As for the British series, it seems like the same game as last year, same people at the front (on different machinery though in some cases), and probably the same winners.

And i think you'll find the main motivation for a control tyre in WSB was for fairness across the board (as opposed to 2003, with Fila Ducati getting one set of Michelins, and the other Michelin runners an outdated tyre spec), rather than to specifically close up the times.

Same game as last year for BSB? Funny, I dont remember GSE being in BSB in the 2004 season, nor do I remember Monstermob being on Honda's. Where is the new blood coming from? Id say Scott Smart, Karl Harris, Ryuchi Kionari, Michael Lavery and Tommy Hill will all be future front runners of the series. As for how competitve will Monstermob be? I dont know, nobody does yet for sure, but McWilliams and Laverty are certainly no slouches and i woudnt be suprised to see Laverty right up there if his BSS form is anything to go by, Gary Mason is no slouch either although IMO he isnt quite up to the same standard of McWilliams and Laverty.

Im sorry to disagree with u again but I do feel that the main reason for WSBK switching to a control tyre was to increase competition, that is why most series switch to a control tyre after all. And after the 2003 WSBK season who can blame the organisers switching to a control tyre, nobody was anywhere near the Fila Ducati guys. BSB dosent have that problem, as the field has strength in depth and the racing is almost always excellent. And yes whilst I can see ur point regarding the Veterans in BSB switching teams, the same surley applies for WSBK, just look at how long most of the riders at the top have been in the series. Haga, Walker, Corser, Toseland, Chilli, none of them are hardly newcomers to the series, and none of them appear to be going anywhere either.

Convinent too isnt it that WSBK has switched to a control tyre formula, no more pesky Wildcard riders to turn up and show up the "stars" of the WSBK package.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Where is the new blood coming from? Id say Scott Smart, Karl Harris, Ryuchi Kionari, Michael Lavery and Tommy Hill will all be future front runners of the series.

If you read my post you will see i mentioned both Scott Smart and Tommy Hill as guys to watch. As for Harris, he had a chance with Suzuki in 2002 and wound up in supersport in 2003. It will be interesting to see how he goes though. Kyonari was unimpressive last year, he was out of his depth in MotoGP and it showed in BSB, although his rides at Donnington were superb. Can he build on that this year....

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

And yes whilst I can see ur point regarding the Veterans in BSB switching teams, the same surley applies for WSBK, just look at how long most of the riders at the top have been in the series. Haga, Walker, Corser, Toseland, Chilli, none of them are hardly newcomers to the series, and none of them appear to be going anywhere either.

Where else is there for them to go? Apart from MotoGP...........

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Convinent too isnt it that WSBK has switched to a control tyre formula, no more pesky Wildcard riders to turn up and show up the "stars" of the WSBK package.

The Wildcards were one of the attractions of the series for many years, whether they were the top guys from Australia (in the early years of WSB), USA, Japan or England. No one complained about it, not the organisers, not FGSport, maybe only teh regulars, who were losing points. It added to the local interest in the races if some of the local heroes could do well. They had to look at the bigger picture though, do you please wildcards who do 1 or 2 rounds, or the series regulars who support the whole championship? Flammini has always said from the start that it was a shame to not have the wildcards there. Hawk Kawasaki tried to get an entry for last years Brands round, they were prepared to run on Pirelli's, but weren't prepared to pay the entry fee and buy the tyres.

Competitive wildcards were a regular feature of World Superbikes right from the start in 1988. If they were worried about them showing up the regulars, something would have been done about it before 2004. Wildcards were much more dominent back in the early days as well. Apart from Shane Byrne'd double at Brands in 2003, the last one's before that were Tamada in Japan in 2002 (one win) and 2001 (double), while in 2000 Izutsu and Hodgson got 2, while Reynolds got one.

Time was when the wildcards would dominate all the 'wildcard' rounds each year..

[chunder]

I wouldnt say Kiyonaro was umimpressive to be honest, anyone who can blow the entire field away in one race has to be impressive and you know that with all the data now stored in the banks that he is gonna be better in 05.
Plus hadnt you heard that for the majoroity of the year he was not allwoed to set the bike up how he wanted to, was probably running 8 hour settings on it, Donington and the last few rounds were where he was allowed off the leash and it showed!

[N I Tram]

Kiyonari and Harris really need to perform this year to prove themselves, although I suspect Honda want them both (certainly Ryuchi) as long-term prospects to perhaps race at international level.

Wildcard displays don't conclusively prove anything - on the basis of 2000 you might've expected Hodgson to challenge for the 2001 WSBK title, especially as he knew most of the tracks and was on the same bike in the same team, but he rarely challenged for wins. Plenty of other guys (including Abe, a great example) have never matched their wildcard form as regulars.

If you want to delude yourself into thinking that BSB can outshine WSBK long term, go for it, but it really isn't the reality. Why does Walker prefer to finish midfield in WSBK rather than come back to the UK and finally win the title?

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by N I Tram

If you want to delude yourself into thinking that BSB can outshine WSBK long term, go for it, but it really isn't the reality. Why does Walker prefer to finish midfield in WSBK rather than come back to the UK and finally win the title?

Dillude myself? Ha! I dont think im the one being dillousinal, Walker is well past his use by date and u know it, if he came back to BSB at any time he would have got his ass well and truly kicked IMO. Oh, and if u want to use a piece of information like that to boost the WSBK series answer me this, why has Shayne Byrne said recently that if hes not in Moto GP it will be BSB? No mention of WSBK, and it sure as hell isnt because he woudnt be competitive enough, no its because he knows that the best competiton outside of Moto GP is in the BSB paddock at the moment. Just like Jeremey McWilliams knows too and has therefore decided to come back to BSB rather than WSBK, and dont tell me u beleive McWilliams coudnt have got a competitive ride in WSBK had he really wanted to. WSBK has guys from BSB yes I admit, people like Kagayama who whilst fast, just werent fast enough to beat the "veterans" of the BSB paddock, or to even take the runner up spot on what was the best bike, in the best team on the grid in the 04 season.

Originally Posted by racer69

Where else is there for them to go? Apart from MotoGP...........

By the same token, where else is there for the top guys in BSB to go other than Moto GP? WSBK isnt competitive enough at the moment IMO, and the series does seem to be more of a breeding ground for potential Moto GP stars than WSBK does at the moment, WSBK to me is turning into a bit of a retirement village for ex Moto GP stars and guys who cant quite cut it in BSB, sure theres a few good young guys in the series at the moment, but how come nobody picked up Toseland after winning the WSBK crown in 2004? Or even tested him.

[chunder]

Erm anyone ever thought about being outrageously outspoken just for the sake of it.
I reall dont think that Chris is past his sell b date, he was not that far off Toselands pace, indeed was quicker on occasion a few years ago on the same bike in a new team, he was reasonable compared with Corser where Haydon was complete rot and he is doing OK on a fairl standard bike right now.
And as for no one picking up Toseland, if you knew where to get the inforamtion you would know that he turned down GP rides for 2005 because like many Brits nowadays who have any sense he would be a bit part player in a Spanish or Italian team where the other rider was Spanish or Italian, just like Chris was and Hodgson,Ellison, Emmett, Mackenzie and countless others you could caree to mention. THe Dorna establishment onl want Brits in there to keep tv viewing figures high. How else do you explain Checa still there despite underperfomring for 8 years, Barros who is quick but utterly erratic, Nieto being alowed to sta on a works Aprilia despite bein beat every race by privateers, Puig stayin in 500's despite being hardly able to beat privateers. And again countless other examples. You etch if Lavillagot a ride he would make the same impression Xaus did, he just hasn'thad the chance yet.
It is a shame that money and nationality counts for so much in GP, it doesnt so much in WSB and that is good. es i is naff that some riders have got rides on reputation like Abe,Pitt,Nieto,McCoy but at least there is no behind the scenes push for a certain nationality
And anyway, Brits will continue to be well represeted in GP because BSB is owned by Dorna, hece Ellison,Byrne and aydon getting rides in recent years!!