[BTCC] Oulton Park, 17/18 June 2023, Rounds 13/14/15

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Plato was fixed wing

Definitely rotary and not fixed wing for his visits to BTCC venues:



He used to fly fixed wing between Monaco and the UK when he lived there, but flew helicopter to BTCC race venues (including his time as a WestlandAgusta ambassador).

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Looks like a good chance of a few showers on Sunday. Coul,d make things interesting if they arrive at the right/wrong time

As long as it doesn't rain the whole day. It's a much better atmosphere there when it's sunny

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Definitely rotary and not fixed wing for his visits to BTCC venues:



He used to fly fixed wing between Monaco and the UK when he lived there, but flew helicopter to BTCC race venues (including his time as a WestlandAgusta ambassador).

Ah I remember a story of him flying his plane back to 888 to pick up some spares

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Ah I remember a story of him flying his plane back to 888 to pick up some spares

I guess that might have been from a local airport if required. I'm not sure any tracks (Donington aside) are close enough to a runway for fixed wing arrivals to add much benefit over rotary.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I guess that might have been from a local airport if required. I'm not sure any tracks (Donington aside) are close enough to a runway for fixed wing arrivals to add much benefit over rotary.

Thruxton, I do believe, and in the dim and distant past, light aircraft used to be able to land on a runway that was situated in the centre of the infield. I remember that because the CoC (or someone in charge) gave me permission to do some straight line runs on it between qualifying and my race whilst we corrected some fault or other which we did thankfully.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Thruxton, I do believe, and in the dim and distant past, light aircraft used to be able to land on a runway that was situated in the centre of the infield.

Thruxton still very much an active airfield, although I believe the runways are closed during race weekends.

So far this thread has had posts about traffic problems getting out of the circuit and questions about where to park your helicopter, not sure if those are related, but almost nothing about what to expect from the racing this weekend. Are people just losing interest in the series this year?

[thetool]

I hate to sound like our Stuttgart-flavoured friend, but when was the last time the racing was at what could be considered it's prime for the BTCC? 10 years ago? Longer? And it's nothing to do with Sutton dominating, the actual races themselves, be it for the first few places, or further down, just aren't anywhere near as exciting as they used to be.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by thetool

I hate to sound like our Stuttgart-flavoured friend, but when was the last time the racing was at what could be considered it's prime for the BTCC? 10 years ago?

Two years ago at most. Many would argue last year.

There are far too many people wearing rose tinted spectacles around here.
The noughties was generally a very poor era. And super touring wasn't that great either.

[S griffin]

Has there ever been a perfect era? Certainly there's been some years better than others. Like I believe 92-93 was when Super Touring at it's best.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by thetool

I hate to sound like our Stuttgart-flavoured friend, but when was the last time the racing was at what could be considered it's prime for the BTCC? 10 years ago? Longer? And it's nothing to do with Sutton dominating, the actual races themselves, be it for the first few places, or further down, just aren't anywhere near as exciting as they used to be.

Originally Posted by sceptic

Two years ago at most. Many would argue last year.

There are far too many people wearing rose tinted spectacles around here.
The noughties was generally a very poor era. And super touring wasn't that great either.

I guess some of it comes down to if you are actually referring to the:
quality of racing
quality of competition
spectacle on show

The quality of competition and ability on show is (IMO) the highest it has ever been. The entertainment is more nuanced (which might not be to all BTCC spectators liking) and we see a lot less of what should be accepted as bad driving standards.

[AnnoyedMoose]

One theory I have is that now the top guys all know you win a championship by racking up points rather than winning races at the risk of not finishing. Plato always went for wins and Sutton did as well in his first few seasons. I feel that there isn't a top end driver now who will go all out to win rather than banking points.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

One theory I have is that now the top guys all know you win a championship by racking up points rather than winning races at the risk of not finishing. Plato always went for wins and Sutton did as well in his first few seasons. I feel that there isn't a top end driver now who will go all out to win rather than banking points.

I’d say Jake Hill!

May get a chance this weekend at a RWD-friendly track, especially if he can get the lead off the line as overtaking is difficult. But then Ingram got a double win here last time in FWD.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The quality of competition and ability on show is (IMO) the highest it has ever been. The entertainment is more nuanced (which might not be to all BTCC spectators liking) and we see a lot less of what should be accepted as bad driving standards.

I agree with you. The "entertainment" (I'm being highly subjective here) is I think connected with the quality/ability of the drivers and teams (and cars).

When we had internationally-renowned drivers getting paid to race in the BTCC in the 90s, they took risks as they weren't (in most cases) paying for the cars - hence the Super Touring era had a lot of aggression and contact and rivalries ("entertainment").

The early-2000s up until the beginning of NGTC had a lot of variation in the ability of the drivers and seemingly lax driving standards so we got excitement up front, quick drivers coming from the back-to-the-front by overtaking inferior drivers and inferior equipment, and amateurs spinning, crashing into each other (etc.) in machinery often 2-3 years out of date. And we had multiple rulesets at play which had their own strengths and weaknesses (in 2011 for example we had BTC-T, S2000, S2000 with NGTC-spec engines, and full NGTC - not to mention FWD and RWD). Add in some pantomime villains and we had some entertainment.

Even up until the last couple of years we had greater field spread in terms of equipment (e.g., the VW CC in 2020) and drivers, so quick drivers in quick cars could make up lots of places. We do still get this, just not as often as there are a lot of quick people in well-developed cars. We also had more regular use of option tyres which created even more of an offset, and we had considerable variation in results. I think the more diverse grid (e.g., 32 entries, more teams and more makes/models of cars) also supported the "entertainment".

Today, stricter driving standards, more evenly-balanced drivers and teams and cars (and less variety in makes/models), and some ultra-quick guys in well-developed and well-run cars, and individuals being more risk-averse, means we don't get "entertainment" in the same way.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Two years ago at most. Many would argue last year.

There are far too many people wearing rose tinted spectacles around here.
The noughties was generally a very poor era. And super touring wasn't that great either.

Yeah, I think NGTC has been largely very good, and would say least season was great. This year has been rather stagnant up front.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by Evantra

I’d say Jake Hill!

May get a chance this weekend at a RWD-friendly track, especially if he can get the lead off the line as overtaking is difficult. But then Ingram got a double win here last time in FWD.

I'm looking forward to what happens this weekend. If hybrid has slightly more impact here in qualifying then I wonder if Sutton and Ingram may be slightly further back in the top 10. I'm thinking probably Jake Hill versus Dan Rowbottom for pole. Whoever is in the top 3 on the grid in Race 1 and Race 2 will probably fight for those wins, and then I reckon (based off historical form) that the BMWs of Adam Morgan or Stephen Jelley may be in the frame for a reverse-grid win.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Evantra

I’d say Jake Hill!

May get a chance this weekend at a RWD-friendly track, especially if he can get the lead off the line as overtaking is difficult. But then Ingram got a double win here last time in FWD.

I really think that Hill would achieve far more by curbing his aggressiveness even if he gets less overall wins. If you look at most of the championship leaders, you will see that winning at any cost is not as important as racking up points on a steady basis. Unfortunately Hill doesn't have the driving finesse that even Sutton had in his first championship win when he certainly went at it all guns blazing; however, he has been far more circumspect since then; I also think that the same applies to Ingram as well, and we know that Turkington's all held that philosophy.

[thetool]

At the last round at Thruxton for example, once the race had settled down (so after lap 5 I've used for a cut-off) the only position swaps in the top 10 were:

Race 1: Doble/Rowbottom/Collard battle (a total of 8 position changes, including the introduction of Taylor-Smith & Thompson on the last lap)
Race 2: Turkington on Butcher (1 position change)
Race 3: Rowbottom overtaking Moffat for the race win in race 3. Ingram overtaking Hill. (2 position changes)

I looked back at first Thruxton meeting in 2007 for example, smaller field, and less competitive, but I gave up counting in the 40s for total position changes (excluding retirements).

[Mike Harte]

It looks like we are in for some really wet weather from around midday tomorrow; just my luck that we are going there for a change rather than Croft.

[SSmith]

FP1 done. Quite close at the front...

Top 10:
Ingram - 1min 25.507s
Sutton +0.022s
Thompson +0.070s
Cook +0.137s
Cammish +0.186s
Turkington +0.214s
Collard +0.506s
Lloyd +0.653s
Butcher +0.675s
Watson +0.737s

Other championship frontrunners: Rowbottom (P11 +0.782s) & Hill (P17 +1.283s)

[BTCC frog]

Personally, I would say that this season and last season have both had a handful of brilliant moments, but have overall been less good than the racing of the past. This year, the entire Donington meeting was brilliant, and then Brands Hatch race three was great as well with that Collard-Sutton battle. But generally it hasn't been up to the standard of previous years.

In 2022, you could also point to a lot of great battles, such as Hill-Turkington-Ingram-Sutton in Brands Hatch, Cook's defence in Brands Hatch, Sutton vs Hill in Knockhill, Lloyd defending the lead at Croft, and Sutton holding up a train of cars in Brands Hatch. But overall the races weren't generally as exciting because the hybrid is not as good as the weight, in my opinion. 2021 wasn't the best season either, with the only race I remember thinking was actually fantastic was the Brands Indy race where Tom Oliphant held off Rowbottom, then Ingram went through to win. I think generally there was a bit too much of a dirty air effect for touring car racing that year.

2020 was the last season I think was a very good season, with Silverstone race three standing out, and the second half of 2019 was very good as well. But the peak of BTCC in recent times was 2016-18, when the top drivers often struggled in qualifying and the first race with the weight, but could fight back to the front brilliantly in race two. I think also, there was a more considerable swing in performance between meetings back then, whereas now the teams are all so good that they never get it wrong with setups and the like, and that makes there less change in performance during the weekend and it makes it less exciting. It is often the case in motorsport that the better people get at it, the worse it becomes.

Going back further, I think that 2013-15 was probably better than 2010-2012, but the late 2000s were certainly a very good era, particularly 2006-2009 with the last of those years one of the greatest ever. I think the racing at this time was as good as ever. The first half of the BTC-touring era/S2000 era weren't quite so good, with 2001 a particularly bad year until the Plato-Muller rivalry spiced it up at the end, 2002-04 a little better and 2005 another poor year.

The super touring era is looked back upon very fondly, and I think rightly so. 1991 and 1992 were pretty good, in no small part due to Steve Soper, and 1993-1995 were arguably the absolute peak of the BTCC. In 1996 and 1997 it declined slightly but then 1998 was one of the best seasons ever and 1999 and 2000 were very good too. And I cannot comment on the years before 1991.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

And I cannot comment on the years before 1991.

seasons review / races of 1987 to 1990 are on youtube

1988 was a very good year

[Greem]

Could we possibly hive off the comparative nostalgia posts to another thread and keep this one for this weekend's race meeting?

[SSmith]

FP2 complete. I wonder if we could have a shock pole? The CUPRAs and Vauxhalls are looking very quick.

Top 10

Thompson 1min 25.554s
Ingram +0.017s
Taylor-Smith +0.129s
Cammish +0.156s
Watson +0.176s
Sutton +0.250s
Butel +0.289s
Cook +0.292s
Gamble +0.297s
Hill +0.349s

Top 23 covered by 1 second (0.878s to be precise). Powell 1.3s off, Hamilton 1.5s off, Halstead 2.0s off, and Edwards 2.5s off the fastest

Other big names: Rowbottom (P15 +0.446s), Collard (P16 +0.536s), Butcher (P20 +0.749s), Turkington (P23 +0.878s)

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by SSmith

FP2 complete. I wonder if we could have a shock pole? The CUPRAs and Vauxhalls are looking very quick.

Imagine if the first car to beat the Fords to pole was a Cupra! Would love to see what Thompson could do in one of the top teams, hopefully lots of top tens on the cards for tomorrow.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Imagine if the first car to beat the Fords to pole was a Cupra! Would love to see what Thompson could do in one of the top teams, hopefully lots of top tens on the cards for tomorrow.

It would be a real shakeup to the establishment! Hopefully he can get right up there