Round 15 Bommarito Automotive Group 500. Gateway Motorsports Park. Madison, Illinois.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I loved Will's commit of "not wanting" to drive to a fuel strategy.

Interesting race. Very processional at the beginning but certainly came to life after some track cleaning and overlapping of differing strategies.

Marco renewing and getting waxed by his rookie teammate

I enjoyed the 500, but this car struggles to pass everywhere; not just speedways.

Did you watch Mid Ohio, Iowa?

This years Gateway was more impressive than last years which is a good sign for this car

Peoples expectation of instant and constant passing needs to be reset.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Did you watch Mid Ohio, Iowa?

This years Gateway was more impressive than last years which is a good sign for this car

Peoples expectation of instant and constant passing needs to be reset.

No I didn't watch those races so thanks for mentioning 2 out of the other dozen I actually have seen where passing seemed to be at a premium.

I've not said anything about my expectations, but I should have clarified compared to last year, there's less passing, overall.

Glad you enjoyed the race. I think that's what you're also saying...

[NaBUru38]

I enjoyed this race a lot more than Phoenix and Indianapolis. Still, the aero bodykit needs some tweaking.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I found this article on Racer.com by Marshall Pruett, prior to this year's Indy 500 and it goes into some detail about the issues the drivers are facing with the universal aero-kit. Since that article was written, the issues the drivers face are still there.

https://racer.com/2018/05/18/indy-ae...moving-target/

IndyCar is going to have to re-evaluate the UAK and in particular the underwing, which generates the majority of the car's downforce, before next season, or 2019 will be more of the same.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I found this article on Racer.com by Marshall Pruett, prior to this year's Indy 500 and it goes into some detail about the issues the drivers are facing with the universal aero-kit. Since that article was written, the issues the drivers face are still there.

https://racer.com/2018/05/18/indy-ae...moving-target/

IndyCar is going to have to re-evaluate the UAK and in particular the underwing, which generates the majority of the car's downforce, before next season, or 2019 will be more of the same.

The driver comments certainly reaffirm what I've been noticing; they're on the knife edge all the time.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

No I didn't watch those races so thanks for mentioning 2 out of the other dozen I actually have seen where passing seemed to be at a premium.

So you accept that your comment that this car cant pass anywhere is incorrect?

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I've not said anything about my expectations, but I should have clarified compared to last year, there's less passing, overall.

Outside of the SuperSpeedways I would disagree with this statement.

[mstets]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

The driver comments certainly reaffirm what I've been noticing; they're on the knife edge all the time.

I think that's the case, just witness all the single car incidents by respected veteran drivers this year.



Is this (knife edge all the time) a good thing or bad? I'm guessing it's been much harder for some of the regulars to adapt to the new aero package vs. newer to the series drivers, simply because they have been so accustomed to driving with much more downforce.



The cars generally seem to need more front downforce in traffic, though they may be fine in clean air. Driver adjustable (or controlled remotely from pit box) front wing angle?

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

So you accept that your comment that this car cant pass anywhere is incorrect?.

No, not compared to last year.

Outside of the SuperSpeedways I would disagree with this statement.

Okay then.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Maybe IndyCar should introduce the Hanford Device, which was used by CART in the late '90s and early 2000s. Its was designed to increase drag, in order to reduce speeds on superspeedways and increase the draft, giving the car behind more of a tow.

This clip of the last few laps of the 2000 Michigan 500, is a good example of what the Hanford Device can do.

https://youtu.be/25bHlzCbLuA

Alternatively, bring these cars back. Just listen to those engines.

[broadrun96]

Except those of us who watched and remember the ridiculous passing and insanity that was DRS before F1 came up with the reverse idea, remember it was universally derided at the time and hated. It's been brought up multiple times this season and every time the powers that be and teams have said a resounding dear god now, that's not better. It was a gimmick to slow the cars at Texas and it was implemented as all gimmicks are, without decent testing or team approval. It needs to stay where it was and they need to come up with a better whole car solution. Oh wait, that's what they have admitted they are working on and developing the df in a different manner to better balance the cars and work in traffic.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

No, not compared to last year.

Here's one example of the 2018 car providing way more passing in a direct comparison to 2017 event. I look forward to the next excuse.

https://www.indycar.com/News/2018/07...id-Ohio-racing

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Maybe IndyCar should introduce the Hanford Device, which was used by CART in the late '90s and early 2000s. Its was designed to increase drag, in order to reduce speeds on superspeedways and increase the draft, giving the car behind more of a tow.

Way to artificial - no thanks

[mstets]

Pretty sure there has been more passing on short ovals and road courses this year vs. last. I think the aero package still needs some work to get a bit more balance in traffic. Drivers have said that their cars are fine in clean air, then have to crank in a bunch of front wing when they get in traffic. Seems to me that the current spec has done pretty much what it was intended to do: increase passing on short courses and reduce pack racing on bigger ovals.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Here's one example of the 2018 car providing way more passing in a direct comparison to 2017 event. I look forward to the next excuse.

https://www.indycar.com/News/2018/07...id-Ohio-racing

Congrats. One excuse out of an overall comment.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Except those of us who watched and remember the ridiculous passing and insanity that was DRS before F1 came up with the reverse idea, remember it was universally derided at the time and hated. It's been brought up multiple times this season and every time the powers that be and teams have said a resounding dear god now, that's not better. It was a gimmick to slow the cars at Texas and it was implemented as all gimmicks are, without decent testing or team approval. It needs to stay where it was and they need to come up with a better whole car solution. Oh wait, that's what they have admitted they are working on and developing the df in a different manner to better balance the cars and work in traffic.

I can't say I've read anything this season about the Hanford Device. With regards to Texas, the Hanford Device had been used by CART since the 1998 Michigan 500. The overriding problem with Texas in 2001, was insufficient testing and when drivers started experiencing dizziness because of the high Gs they were pulling on the 20° and 24° banking, in Turns 1&2 and 3&4 respectively, the race got pulled.

I found this article from the LA Times, about the Hanford Device, after the 1998 Michigan 500 and reading the driver's comments, it doesn't sound like they hate the device, infact quite the opposite. At the time and it was 20 years ago, I don't remember it being universally derided or hated.

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/oct/28/sports/sp-36896

It could be seen as a gimmick but considering one of its functions was to slow the cars, after the speeds experienced at Fontana in '97, it achieved that and from a safety perspective, that's far from gimmicky.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It could be seen as a gimmick but considering one of its functions was to slow the cars, after the speeds experienced at Fontana in '97, it achieved that and from a safety perspective, that's far from gimmicky.

Its the overtaking that is gimmicky

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Its the overtaking that is gimmicky

I yearn for the days when someone, deservedly so, won by a lap or more (quite often, in fact). 'Meant that racing was more than just a show. And, those rare occasions when there was a battle to the end, had much more meaning as it wasn't due to "equalizing' the "playing field". (I didn't know racing was a game to be played)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Its the overtaking that is gimmicky

The overtaking was gimmicky. If you watch the 1997 Michigan 500, it was totally different and like what we've seen at this year's Indy 500.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The overtaking was gimmicky.

'Still is. Just about all forms of pro racing...for the "show" as opposed to "showing" excellence.
IndyCar with it's spec chassis, bodywork and (at the moment) 2 make engines. Sportscars with their "BoPing". F1 with it's wonderful DRS and penalties for replacing this and that....'won't even bring up NASCAR (aside from all else, '"stages" and "playoffs"? Egads..."game time" eh?) that's been the leader in "showtime"....rather than real drivers, engineers, designers, fabricators and so-on's displays of superiority or inferiority, as the case may be.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jimclark

'Still is. Just about all forms of pro racing...for the "show" as opposed to "showing" excellence.
IndyCar with it's spec chassis, bodywork and (at the moment) 2 make engines. Sportscars with their "BoPing". F1 with it's wonderful DRS and penalties for replacing this and that....'won't even bring up NASCAR (aside from all else, '"stages" and "playoffs"? Egads..."game time" eh?) that's been the leader in "showtime"....rather than real drivers, engineers, designers, fabricators and so-on's displays of superiority or inferiority, as the case may be.

Unfortunately, there's always going to be a certain amount of contrivance. However, it's about that fine line between what is acceptable and what is gimmicky.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Unfortunately, there's always going to be a certain amount of contrivance. However, it's about that fine line between what is acceptable and what is gimmicky.

'Understand your point of view but disagree. All of the above, to me, is gimmickry (sp?). Racing used to be about proving who could design, build, develop, compete the best, then do it some more. Now there's nothing but putting on a "show" to gain exposure for the sponsors of said show....sorta' like any fictional movie or show. Hmmmmm....do I see a similarity here?

Nothing more. Nothing less.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jimclark

'Understand your point of view but disagree. All of the above, to me, is gimmickry (sp?). Racing used to be about proving who could design, build, develop, compete the best, then do it some more. Now there's nothing but putting on a "show" to gain exposure for the sponsors of said show....sorta' like any fictional movie or show. Hmmmmm....do I see a similarity here?

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Indeed, that's what racing used to be about but the costs in doing that now, would be prohibitive. So everything is now done within a narrow formula to keep the costs down but still continue racing. Hence the contrivance.

However, that doesn't mean designers, drivers and teams can't still try to be the best, within the confines they are participating in.

[Dixon9]

parity within bounds is so much better than systems where two teams dominate forever. i don't really like drs or artificially created passing but the best thing about indy car at the moment is the best drivers are all up the front and there are a lot of good drivers in the field.

[mstets]

I agree up to a point but think that this year's results are pretty much skewed to the top three teams: Penske, Ganassi, Andretti. Seems the series has regressed a bit this year in regard to smaller teams winning. Only Hinch and Bourdais have won other than the big three. In 2017 four races were won by 2nd tier teams, in 2016 three, in 2015 five. Perhaps the last two races of 2018 will be won by underdogs, but it seems unlikely.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Indeed, that's what racing used to be about but the costs in doing that now, would be prohibitive. So everything is now done within a narrow formula to keep the costs down but still continue racing. Hence the contrivance.

However, that doesn't mean designers, drivers and teams can't still try to be the best, within the confines they are participating in.

IndyCar aside, what about the development costs for these formulas for keeping the cost down? How hard do they have to try to develop in series when you're only going to be BoP'ed if you become "unequally faster"?
And about IndyCar, what designers? There is no designing (and the innovation that comes with it) when you must run what's handed to you.

Like good movies and shows, why not just just script it and have the teams play the parts correctly. 'Could have the whole field duking it out right to the wire. How exciting. 'May as well go watch some Rocky movies (or the like).
That way at least you know you're not being had, you know it's fake from the git-go.

Originally Posted by Dixon9

parity within bounds is so much better than systems where two teams dominate forever.

You're right. Now there's all of a whopping three that dominate.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by mstets

I agree up to a point but think that this year's results are pretty much skewed to the top three teams: Penske, Ganassi, Andretti. Seems the series has regressed a bit this year in regard to smaller teams winning. Only Hinch and Bourdais have won other than the big three. In 2017 four races were won by 2nd tier teams, in 2016 three, in 2015 five. Perhaps the last two races of 2018 will be won by underdogs, but it seems unlikely.