FF1600 Lap Record List

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by diz

smelling pistakeI am 100% against allowing times set on Dunlops to stand. Maybe in an all time lap record list that is OK, but for a list of "current spec" records, you must limit it to Avons.

I'm also still not convinced that some circuits are exactly the same today as they were some years ago. Small changes like resurfacing, more severe / less severe kerbs, greater / lesser run offs must come into play.

As for Oulton Fosters. Raceday programmes have regulary shown the record as Mike Bennett in low 63s', but I recall that the works guys were in the 62s', or even 61s' - I stand to be corrected on this.

Personally, I think that the Dunlops are slower tyres. Therefore, allowing records set on them makes sense as those running Avons should theoretically be able to beat pre-'94 lap times. The biggest difference in Spence's lap at Mallory was probably the spec of his engine - I'd imagine that it was a bit special, just like Magnussen's Foundation Racing motor.

If you can find evidence of a faster Oulton Fosters lap then it will replace the Chadwick lap I currently have listed. My records only back to 2004, so it is likely that someone could have beaten this. Has the Fosters circuit changed dramatically at all?

If changes to kerbing immediately signifies that previous times are null and void then Brands Indy will have a new lap record during it's first race of 2012; the exit kerb at Druids has been widened. In my mind, kerbing changes, resurfacing etc. don't null and void lap records. Changing corners and circuit layouts do. Mallory Park has not changed since the 1960s. I'd imagine kerbs have been replaced, but on the whole they are the same size and shape as previous iterations.

[barnettracing]

Right, a poll has been added. 'Yes' or 'No' depending on whether you think the Mallory (and potentially Cadwell/Oulton Fosters) lap records should be discounted for being set on Dunlop tyres; despite there being no major circuit changes at the aforementioned circuits.

I shall also have a check through the Blue Book to see if the MSA give any guidance on lap record stipulations, as I don't believe that kerbing/run-off changes and resurfacing null and void previous lap records. Otherwise:
- Mallory doesn't have a lap record (thanks to its 2011 resurface) and lack of subsequent FF1600 racing at the circuit
- Silverstone's lap record will be set in 2010-onwards thanks to resurfacing and kerbing changes due to the Arena GP modifications
- Brands Indy and GP don't have lap records due to Druids changes over this winter (2011/2012).

Thoughts from everyone? At the end of the day, it is probably better for all the competitors to accept the current lap records, rather than let them be dictated by stipulations that some people may not agree with.

[McArthur252]

I've done a 1:11.0 and a 1:33.3 in testing on the Anglesey tracks

...new goal for this year .

Great thread. very interesting!

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by McArthur252

I've done a 1:11.0 and a 1:33.3 in testing on the Anglesey tracks

...new goal for this year .

Great thread. very interesting!

Exactly! Everyone has 'done' quick laps in testing, but thanks to the organising clubs neglecting to publish/keep records of lap records anymore we, the competitors, often don't know what the proverbial bar is. Breaking a lap record should be a major accomplishment but it is often hard to tell as we don't know!

JB

[Nick Hewitt]

The fastest lap I ever did at Mallory was unofficial as it was a test day in Feb 04 , it was 47.8 on Avons , The fastest official lap I ever did was a pole time of 48.1 , also in 04, so the times set in 1992 were totally representative and therefore realistically achievable.
The times at Mallory have been all over the place for some time now , even with the new surface , there doesn't seem to be a definitive benchmark , I reckon anywhere from 1990 -2005/2006 were more a fair reflection timewise , to be quick at Mallory throughout that era you needed to be minimum of 48.5 and below , regardless of tyres (Dunlops were better in quite a few respects though , notably longevity !)
The lap records that were set , whenever they were set , on whatever tyres they were set should stand , forget all this current convoluted class structure , thats total ****** , the person who has set the quickest lap overall at any given circuit should be the one who has the privilege of holding the Lap Record , Period.

[diz]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Exactly! Everyone has 'done' quick laps in testing, but thanks to the organising clubs neglecting to publish/keep records of lap records anymore we, the competitors, often don't know what the proverbial bar is. Breaking a lap record should be a major accomplishment but it is often hard to tell as we don't know!

JB

Surely the lap record records should be maintained by the circuit owners. Why should an organising club have to check every other organising clubs results just in case a racing class they organise is run by another club and a lap / class record is set, or broken?.
It is not just FF1600 that needs a correct list of lap records, but the multitude of other racing classes as well.
This sounds like a mammoth task. Fancy taking on that task Josh?

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by diz

Surely the lap record records should be maintained by the circuit owners. Why should an organising club have to check every other organising clubs results just in case a racing class they organise is run by another club and a lap / class record is set, or broken?.

Because it is part of the 'organisation' of a championship. It is in the title. Organising clubs are partially responsible for the content of race day programmes but lap record data has been neglected by them.

As I also said, it is possible that there are lists kept, but that they are not published and readily available to the people they concern, the competitors.

Originally Posted by diz

It is not just FF1600 that needs a correct list of lap records, but the multitude of other racing classes as well.
This sounds like a mammoth task. Fancy taking on that task Josh?

I am compiling this list as I have a personal and vested interest in FF1600 across the UK. I would happily produce lists for other series if I had the time; I'm currently applying for PGCE courses and as thus my world doesn't solely revolve around motorsport. For those whose business it is, I would suggest they should compile lists (even if you disagree with me over this).

Once these lists are compiled, keeping them up to date is a very simple task. Every time there is a FF1600 race I will have to simply check the fastest laps to see if they have eclipsed those recorded on the list. This will take around 1 minute per race (most of that being taken in the time to load the TSL PDFs).

The problem is that the upkeep of these lists has been neglected and thus, before the simple cross-referencing process can take place, the records have to be compiled again. Further to that, arguments arise over track conditions etc ad infinitum. The fact that I, as a competitor, have had to take this into my own hands says something about the administrative capabilities of the circuits and organising bodies.

Maybe, rather than trying to replicate other clubs' successful series, the BARC, MSVR, BRSCC etc. should focus on strengthening their own championships rather than further diluting club motorsport. This would partially negate the problem about multiple series running to the same regs. But, that is for another discussion/thread.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Nick Hewitt

The fastest lap I ever did at Mallory was unofficial as it was a test day in Feb 04 , it was 47.8 on Avons , The fastest official lap I ever did was a pole time of 48.1 , also in 04, so the times set in 1992 were totally representative and therefore realistically achievable.
The times at Mallory have been all over the place for some time now , even with the new surface , there doesn't seem to be a definitive benchmark , I reckon anywhere from 1990 -2005/2006 were more a fair reflection timewise , to be quick at Mallory throughout that era you needed to be minimum of 48.5 and below , regardless of tyres (Dunlops were better in quite a few respects though , notably longevity !)
The lap records that were set , whenever they were set , on whatever tyres they were set should stand , forget all this current convoluted class structure , thats total ****** , the person who has set the quickest lap overall at any given circuit should be the one who has the privilege of holding the Lap Record , Period.

I totally agree with you here Nick. The Dunlops were definitely harder and therefore lasted longer (something they need to get back to; Avon are doing a good job in that respect, heading in the right direction). But I think the 2005-2010 Avons were some of the quickest Kent tyres ever; they were so much softer than Dunlops and 2011-spec rubber.

I reckon a low 48s is achievable and 47s could happen on a 'float' day. Lap records shouldn't be easy to break, and they are often broken on strange days. The Combe record was broken by around one second in 2008 despite no major changes and unremarkable weather. As I said, I did a 48.7s having had my longest ever winter break (Nov-Mar) and the car was doing it's first run after a major chassis revision, on throwaway tyres (they always suit Mallory?). The Mallory lap record is one I really want to get, precisely because it is still held by Spence. It'll be 20 years this year, it'd be pretty special to snatch it.

The only time circuit changes should void a lap record is when they make a major revision, like adding a big ****-off chicane or a **** infield section (see Snetterton).

[diz]

##

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Because it is part of the 'organisation' of a championship. It is in the title. Organising clubs are partially responsible for the content of race day programmes but lap record data has been neglected by them.
As I said earlier, why should the organising club have to maintain lap record data? That is the circuits job
As I also said, it is possible that there are lists kept, but that they are not published and readily available to the people they concern, the competitors. I know that Anglesey don't keep this info and AFAIK Oulton don't either.



I am compiling this list as I have a personal and vested interest in FF1600 across the UK. I would happily produce lists for other series if I had the time; I'm currently applying for PGCE courses and as thus my world doesn't solely revolve around motorsport. For those whose business it is, I would suggest they should compile lists (even if you disagree with me over this). If I am one of these "those whose business it is" then I'm not. FF1600 is - and always has been - just an unpaid hobby for me

Once these lists are compiled, keeping them up to date is a very simple task. Every time there is a FF1600 race I will have to simply check the fastest laps to see if they have eclipsed those recorded on the list. This will take around 1 minute per race (most of that being taken in the time to load the TSL PDFs).

The problem is that the upkeep of these lists has been neglected and thus, before the simple cross-referencing process can take place, the records have to be compiled again. Further to that, arguments arise over track conditions etc ad infinitum. The fact that I, as a competitor, have had to take this into my own hands says something about the administrative capabilities of the circuits and organising bodies.

Maybe, rather than trying to replicate other clubs' successful series, the BARC, MSVR, BRSCC etc. should focus on strengthening their own championships rather than further diluting club motorsport. This would partially negate the problem about multiple series running to the same regs. But, that is for another discussion/thread.BARC is Classic, plus the occasional Trophy Race, MSVR is JEB's baby and probably part of the JP Master Plan to boot and BRSCC is Regional and National, although I realise that not everybody wants to race with them.

Just had a thought, has FF1600 ever raced at Jurby?

So if - as you appear to favour - the clubs took on the task, you would have BARC, MSVR, BRSCC and a couple of Scottish clubs and a few Irish clubs and Castle Combe all doing the same thing. Not good.

[diz]

Another circuit configuration and yet another lap record for the mix.

Sat 2nd June 2007 CSCC invited FF1600 to form a class in their Formula Free races. There was only one FF taker on the Saturday, but a few more on the Sunday.

Saturday was on the National Circuit, with Sunday on the Coastal.

So John Farrell, Jamun M89 holds the Anglesey National Circuit FF1600 lap record at 1m02.650s as the only FF1600 driver ever to race on it.

I believe the fourth configuration of Anglesey - the Club Circuit - is licenced, but has yet to host a race meeting. It would be fast, exciting and the action at the final hairpin can only be anticipated as frenetic.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by diz

So John Farrell, Jamun M89 holds the Anglesey National Circuit FF1600 lap record at 1m02.650s as the only FF1600 driver ever to race on it.

I believe the fourth configuration of Anglesey - the Club Circuit - is licenced, but has yet to host a race meeting. It would be fast, exciting and the action at the final hairpin can only be anticipated as frenetic.

Cheers for that Diz. I'll add it to the list. Out of interest have you found a faster lap at Oulton Fosters?

With regards to Jurby, have they ever held a car meeting? I know they do bikes and karts but I've never even heard of a single car race there. Also, it certainly isn't a contemporary, used venue in the sense of the others in the list. If anyone wants to prove me wrong though...

I don't feel it is the sole job of the organising clubs to keep lap records, but to say that it is solely the circuit owners' job because it is their circuit record begs the question, why not the organising clubs because it is their championship/series lap records too? Like everything, better collaboration between the two entities would help everyone.

Just because you are an organising club doesn't mean you have to be useless collaborators with the other clubs (this isn't just directed at the BRSCC but all clubs). If everyone worked together then records like these would be easy to keep, as I pointed out earlier.

Lord know's the competitors pay enough in admin fees to warrant such a service/info and this has hardly been as difficult as it would have been pre-TSL, SMART etc. Ultimately it seems that I believe the organising clubs, as organisers of the championship, should keep the records whereas you believe it should be the circuits, as it is their lap records.

[diz]

What about Phoenix Park and various Street Races held over the years in Ireland with FF1600 content, such as Ballyjamesduff, Dun Laoghaire.

Also now defunct mainland circuits :
The original Croft
Aintree
Rufforth
Longridge
Llandow
and others which I'm sure others will remember and now post.

[diz]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

With regards to Jurby, have they ever held a car meeting?

I'm sure they have. I think BARC had something to do with running them.

[JNWRF01]

I think the main thing with these records - is that you have to look at what other classes are racing with FF1600. Back in the day - it was pretty common to have FVL / F3 / BTCC racing on the same bill as the FF1600 (even Juniors) so there was a lot of rubber down. I know its a dirty word - but if you look at when FF Zetecs ran with BTCC the times were frankly amazing. For eg - Snett lap record in Zetecs was a mid 1.08s in 2002... as usual Zetec time was a 1.10 - but on the BTCC rubber - they flew. I remember that Mallory race was a support race for the FVL series in 92...

Completely seperately - has anyone run this new block over here yet?

[Ian Sowman]

Lots of interesting points raised here.

Jurby - yes, Diz is right. There was at least one BARC meeting there in the 1990s.

Other circuits no longer used - could be a very long list. I will add Birmingham and the Mallory Park oval to the list (but not offer any suggestions as to the lap record).

John Farrell's Anglesey national record - if we allow that as a record, don't we need to check every other race in which a FF1600-spec car might have competed, as well as FF1600 only races? Take it off the list, Josh!

Circuit revisions - I really think this should only apply to the physical layout of the circuit itself - not resurfacing, not rekerbing. Meaningless otherwise.

Croix - I am sure that there will have been BRSCC 'contemporary' FF1600 races there in the late 1990s/early 2000s, so the lap record is probably with them. Maybe Colin Mann would have the information.

Cadwell - didn't spot Peter Dempsey's lap record on the list of Cadwell Park lap records. Perhaps SMART didn't time that meeting.

[diz]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

John Farrell's Anglesey national record - if we allow that as a record, don't we need to check every other race in which a FF1600-spec car might have competed, as well as FF1600 only races? Take it off the list, Josh!

No, leave it on. On those two days FF1600 were invited to form a class within the Formula Free races, which is different to an FF1600 driver entering a Formula Libre race independently.

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

Cadwell - didn't spot Peter Dempsey's lap record on the list of Cadwell Park lap records. Perhaps SMART didn't time that meeting.

No it was a BRSCC meeting and I was there standing in for the absent Harry Potter. It would have been TSL, or were they still MST then?

Staying with Cadwell, what about the shorter circuit. I was there in the mid 70's helping Eddie Jordan [oh how I can name drop ] and he won that race. Afterwards he got called to the CoC. "What's all that about?" asked Richard Dutton [more name dropping]. "Probably sh*ggin' yellow flags" EJ replied. He was wrong. He didn't stop at the finish line after the slowing down lap to collect his bubbly was all it was.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by diz

No, leave it on. On those two days FF1600 were invited to form a class within the Formula Free races, which is different to an FF1600 driver entering a Formula Libre race independently.

I have similar views to Ian on this matter; whilst the above race featured a class for cars complying with FF1600 regulations, this has been replicated in other championships (e.g. SEMSEC Single Seaters) or one off races (such as Castle Combe Open Single Seaters). Furthermore, I'm sure that some drivers have competed in championships such as Monoposto or Formula 4 in eligible cars, which greatly increases the number of races that need to be included. However, other drivers may have competed in such races in cars that are in near conformity to the regulations. Looking at such races, potentially some time after the event, may mean that it is difficult to work out who was in a pukka FF1600 car and who wasn't.

[diz]

Originally Posted by kipper

Looking at such races, potentially some time after the event, may mean that it is difficult to work out who was in a pukka FF1600 car and who wasn't.

In this case, all FF1600 entrants were NW Championship regulars in their regular cars taking part in an Invitation FF1600 class.

Originally Posted by kipper

Looking at such races, potentially some time after the event, may mean that it is difficult to work out who was in a pukka FF1600 car and who wasn't.

Looking at such races, potentially some time after the event has only happened because of Josh's very interesting thread, which has somewhat reawakened my enjoyment of this forum [and I never thought I'd hear myself saying that]

[Ian Sowman]

How useful a FF1600 website would be to help resolve some of the questions raised in this thread...

[kipper]

Originally Posted by diz

In this case, all FF1600 entrants were NW Championship regulars in their regular cars taking part in an Invitation FF1600 class.

A fair point; however, if that race is to be 'included', then in the interests of fairness all other races in which cars complying to FF1600 regulations have competed in should also feature.

Originally Posted by diz

Looking at such races, potentially some time after the event has only happened because of Josh's very interesting thread

That is true and it does make for an interesting means for passing the time. As an example of this, thanks to this thread I've now seen the results from a selection of 1993 SMRC clubbies at Ingliston.

[flatbroke]

I might have the lap record around silverstone Stowe circuit
In a (pukka rf92) !!

Semsec race does not count !!

[diz]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

How useful a FF1600 website would be to help resolve some of the questions raised in this thread...

How useful that would be full stop.

Go on then, resurrect it. Josh is a journo, so that is south of Watford covered.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

How useful a FF1600 website would be to help resolve some of the questions raised in this thread...

It's funny you should mention that. Anyway...

For the moment I will keep Anglesey National lap record. However, I have massive reservations about it. Even if it was a class for FF1600, I cannot imagine that the scrutineers made as much effort to check eligibility compared to a de facto Kent race. Although it sets a potentially dangerous precedent, I believe that only laps from standalone FF1600 races should count - as Kipper pointed out, many cars in Mono form often resemble FF1600 cars, but under the skin could have a whole host of mods.

This is still slightly flexible though. For example, if a FF2000 and FF1600 became a combined grid (such as in the French series) then I would allow that. The scrutineering would be much more thorough.

I am not going to include circuits such as Jurby, Ingliston, Birmingham, Mallory Oval etc as they are circuits that either are completely inactive or unlikely to be used for a modern FF1600 race. Rockingham and Cadwell are on the list (before any arguments start) as I could believe that a race could be held there in the near future.

Has anyone verified the Thruxton and Oulton Fosters records.

Also, the Spence lap record will stand (in this record). If you chose to ignore it then fine, but it won't be updated until it is beaten (if ever). The circuit has not changed and the tyres are undoubtedly slower than Avons. The spec of the cars hasn't changed.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by diz

Josh is a journo

Actually I'm a soon to be student teacher. But just watch this space over the next few years.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by flatbroke

I might have the lap record around silverstone Stowe circuit
In a (pukka rf92) !!

Semsec race does not count !!

Bolocks. That was in a BARC SE race!