US cars are fine: SUVs suck!

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by garcon
So one would have logically thought a truck licence of some sort would be required to drive one. But no! Any fat fool with a normal car licence can!

I assume you have a UK car licence? You are automatically entitled to drive class C1 vehicles, which are trucks up 7500Kg.

[garcon]

Very true - was thinking that when I typed it. Of course one doesn't tend to see statistics for accidents involving light commercials upto 7500kg. Bet it's not pretty though.

Except I s'pose the vast majority of such are driven by professionals (irrespective of extra training) - i.e. they drive all day every day and at least have a level of experience to go with the responsibility of driving such a vehicle.

All the same - Chui's right - if you've got more than 4 people and lots of luggage and you're doing a 1000 mile plus journey, you'd want something big, roomy, comfortable for all concerned. A half decent large sedan will do if there's just two of you, but more than that I'd want the biggest SUV I could find.

[Neil C]

Originally posted by Osella
Of course we're all free etc etc but I for one feel that freedom cheapened somewhat whenever some goes on about it in a libertarian way...

No, what cheapens freedom is when it is trivialized.

The consensus here seems to be "because all I need is a (insert name of non-SUV vehicle), then nobody else should need anything more". Are my choices to be limited by your needs, or mine? (Not directed at you personally, Osella, but in general)

Lee, trying to use the "your freedom to throw a punch ends where my nose begins" argument in this case is interesting. Why choose SUV's as the place to draw the line? Why not sports cars? or motorsports? In fact, I defy anyone to even give me a serious definition of what an SUV is.

Last week I hauled three live trees in the back of my Escape. In a Volvo wagon it would have taken three trips. Who's wasting resources now? Next fall I will take to the back country on a hunting/fishing trip. Care to follow me in your sedan? Next winter when the snow flies and your station wagon is stuck in the driveway, call me if you need a ride to work.

Oh, yeah, my wife will be amused to hear that she's a "b*tch trophy wife".

[JonesF1]

I own a 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee and drive it perfectly. At least compared to the 200,000+ muppets and tourists that im surrounded by. Not all SUV drivers are bad, most of the BS I see is from tuners who think they can race, old people that drive land yachts, crazy business guy that doesnt know whats going on, b*tch trophy wife (doesnt matter what shes driving), and the occasional im drunk as hell so see if you can pass me before I swerve into you guy. It takes all kinds to make South Carolinas highways become "dieways" (safety ad) and Horry county is one of the worst in the country. Ill be lucky to live past 26 and the auto that kills me probably wont be an SUV. Its the same story all over the US: SUVs suck but theres enough bad driving to go around for everyone.

[dretceterini]

We don't have graded licenses in the US, and I think it might be a good idea to do so...excpet for the stupid government burocracy involved...

[garcon]

Neil, the very fact you've been tree-lugging (that's Lugging, not hugging ) and go off the blackstuff on hunting trips excludes you from any such criticism that may be levelled - you USE the darn thing.

I'd be guessing about the States, but here in the UK 95% of large off-roaders never ever venture away from the motorways and (sub)urban school runs...

Oh, and I guess that means your good lady ain't a b*tch trophy wife, either

[Neil C]

Damn, Garcon, I always wanted a b*tch trophy wife. As long as we agree that b*tch doesn't mean butch, that is.

[garcon]

Wouldn't be much of a trophy if she was butch... guess it depends where you'd mount her.



Back to cars & SUVs, methinks!!

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by garcon
Neil, the very fact you've been tree-lugging (that's Lugging, not hugging ) and go off the blackstuff on hunting trips excludes you from any such criticism that may be levelled - you USE the darn thing.

I'd be guessing about the States, but here in the UK 95% of large off-roaders never ever venture away from the motorways and (sub)urban school runs...

Oh, and I guess that means your good lady ain't a b*tch trophy wife, either

Exactly. You actually use it, Neil.

The Harm Theory argument doesn't apply to sports cars as well. Here's my argument: That you will always have bad drivers, especially in the US. Knowing that, it makes sense to restrict their freedom to drive a vehicle with increased weight, poor handling characteristics, and bumpers ram right into the windows on many passenger cars, until such time as a driver demonstrates that he/she can control such a vehicle and has several years of driving free of collisions or major infractions.

Alfasud put it best: "It's not true that SUVs have no crumple zone - the crumple zone is your Honda, Toyota, Ford Focus/Mondeo or whatever small-midsize car. The SUV buyer has made a decision that in the event of an accident he/she intends to kill you in order to save his/her own neck - then he/she increases the probability of that happening, by following one metre behind your rear bumper."

And while that's not the reason you bought your Escape, which is rather modest as SUVs go, it is an oft-stated reason for purchasing these vehicles! You need only putter around for a few hours in an economy car, driving a reasonable 5mph over the speed limit, before someone in a large truck or SUV uses the grill of their vehicle as a tool of intimidation.

Sports cars, on the other hand, enhance the safety of those around them, _if_ we assume the same about the drivers. They handle exceptionally well, and can avoid collisions which might be unavoidable in poorer-handling vehicles (SUVs especially).

They also tend to weigh considerably less than most vehicles, which means that in a collision, they will pose less of a threat to the other party involved.

That's for small sports cars like an MX-5 or an MR2, mind you... A graduating licensing system would also restrict inexperienced/dangerous drivers from purchasing a Corvette, Viper, or 911, because that's too much car for an untrained driver to be trusted with, what with the snap oversteer in low traction conditions with a heavy foot, and the temptation to exceed one's abilities.

And yes, of course there would be exceptions... I'm not going to tell some farmer that his kid can't drive the truck. I certainly don't have all the answers, or even perhaps good ones. But it's an issue which needs to be discussed in the public forum.

[Neil C]

Ok, so I use mine for the purpose for which it was built. But my point was not to get an exclusion for myself so I can point my finger self righteously at "those other people". My point is that if we restrict the freedom to choose, than someone such as I would ALSO be restricted from having that choice.

An even bigger point is the collective consciousness of which we seem to be capable. Suddenly it is popular and socially correct to heap scorn on someone just because of their choice of automobile. Even to the point of suggesting SUV's be banned. Then we go off on all sorts of perfectly rational justifications for vilifying and ridiculing their owners, such as those posted above. I've seen the same done to people that choose to smoke, people that hunt or fish instead of buying their food in stores, people that happen to be Americans, people that happen to be Jewish, or black or gay. While some if it may be harmless, there's something patently hypocritical about a bunch of motorsport and performance automobile enthusiasts acting all superior to those that drive a type of vehicle they cannot even define. How can Lee say "Sports cars enhance the safety of those around them". When? on icy or wet roads? On rough or muddy roads? At the hands of someone with more guts than brains? It just doesn't wash. I'm called to task for stereotyping Honda Civic owners as "listless mall rats" (I like that, actually), yet the whole purpose of this thread is to stereotype and condescend to SUV owners.

Has anyone read "The Crucible", or studied the McCarthy era, or the Salem witch trials? It is this same cultural polarization that I see in this discussion.

[Bluebottle]

I think we've taken this far enough now, comparing car-stereotyping to racism is a little too much (although it is thought provoking and perhaps a little close to home)
I think that we all agree that driver training is the biggest problem here and 'they should do something about it'

[Neil C]

No, Blue, I've taken it too far. And I agree with you to an extent.

However, at least where I live, the "humorous, good natured" discussion of SUV's has really turned into a discussion of banning them. That's why I felt compelled to express my feelings on the dark side of this issue.

Back to good old all-in-fun SUV bashing now. Sorry to spoil the party.

[EERO]

Ooohh Ooooh, me next!!!!!!!!

Actually, I confess an intense dislike of things though I admit their utility. however, all-wheel drive is available in enough cars at this point that the argument that owning an FU-V is neccessary to negotiate winter roads just doesn't wash. Also, with the exception of hauling huge loads, most station wagons, Volvo, SAAB, Subaru or my own Passat will haul 5 adults in comfort. But my biggest complaint is that you just cannot see around the damned things when you are in a car. Park in a Golf between two FUV's at the supermarket and play Russian Roulette as you try to back out of your space. Try to follow an FU-V on a busy swiftly moving highway and see if you can have any sense of the flow of traffic ahead-leave more than enough room to stop between you and the truck in front of you and some other driver will dive into the space.
I cannot tell you how many Escalades have nearly flattened me because the driver couldn't see me off his passenger side rear quarter panel as I was tooling along.


Quite simply, if everyone drove FUV's, there would be no problem, but the disparity of vehicle sizes creates the problems. I think, (it was Lee, right) who makes the contention that light trucks have been sold as cars by the US Auto industry and the government has not held the Industry accountable. And finally, a question, if the left passing lane on the Interstate says "No Trucks", what's the Mom weaving while on cellphoe doing in the left lane in that Expedition?

[Neil C]

Once again, EERO has struck upon the elegant solution. Don't ban them, require them!

When gasoline goes over $2.50, watch all the Escapades, Extrusions and Exhibitions dry up.

[EERO]

Originally posted by Neil C
Once again, EERO has struck upon the elegant solution. Don't ban them, require them!

Did I say that??????

[Chui]

Actually, we've already experienced this in the US... $2.50 for premium unleaded in the Detroit Metro Area and the beasts were unfazed...