Unecessary Complication in Road Cars

[Mike Harte]

A lot is often said about the Japanese reverse engineering a lot of their products, something that the Chinese seem to be doing nowadays.

However, it is interesting to note that Rolls Royce secretly purchased two Toyota Crowns in 1981/82 because they wanted to emulate the air-conditioning system that was in the car. I believe that the Crown was the first mass-produced vehicle that had a split heating system that meant that you could have heat in the rear and air-con in the front, or vice-versa, because it had a separate air-con unit in the back, and the temperature in the rear could also be controlled by the rear passengers. Plus a mini refrigerator box built into the rear parcel shelf.

Future Rolls had almost identical systems!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

A lot is often said about the Japanese reverse engineering a lot of their products, something that the Chinese seem to be doing nowadays.

However, it is interesting to note that Rolls Royce secretly purchased two Toyota Crowns in 1981/82 because they wanted to emulate the air-conditioning system that was in the car. I believe that the Crown was the first mass-produced vehicle that had a split heating system that meant that you could have heat in the rear and air-con in the front, or vice-versa, because it had a separate air-con unit in the back, and the temperature in the rear could also be controlled by the rear passengers. Plus a mini refrigerator box built into the rear parcel shelf.

Future Rolls had almost identical systems!

Some would say that that is unnecessary complication! I am not one of those people. My daughter in the back is always colder than the one in the front.

[VIVA GT]

On the way to work this morning my car odometer 'clicked over' the 100,000 mile mark. Years ago this would have been a big event and I'd always try to see it happen, but when I got here today I noticed it read 100,004.
Is this no longer an event because it's noting special anymore for a car to reach that mileage, or is it less exciting to watch on a digital readout compared to the old mechanical odometer?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

On the way to work this morning my car odometer 'clicked over' the 100,000 mile mark. Years ago this would have been a big event and I'd always try to see it happen, but when I got here today I noticed it read 100,004.
Is this no longer an event because it's noting special anymore for a car to reach that mileage, or is it less exciting to watch on a digital readout compared to the old mechanical odometer?

It's no longer an achievement. My terrible 56 plate Fiesta has hit that, and that had a VERY rough life before I owned it, as it got the arse ragged out of it. If my badly made, poorly treated, budget hatchback can do it, then it's not a big deal. It's more of a big deal to hit 200,000 miles now. But even then, Skoda and VW diesels will hit that without breaking sweat. And you could push them for longer if you were willing to put in the money to do it, it just becomes uneconomical.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's no longer an achievement. My terrible 56 plate Fiesta has hit that, and that had a VERY rough life before I owned it, as it got the arse ragged out of it. If my badly made, poorly treated, budget hatchback can do it, then it's not a big deal. It's more of a big deal to hit 200,000 miles now. But even then, Skoda and VW diesels will hit that without breaking sweat. And you could push them for longer if you were willing to put in the money to do it, it just becomes uneconomical.

Provided you have paid silly money replacing every piece of plastic under the bonnet as it degrades from the heat it is subject to.
The electric cooling fans will have died twice, you will have to have replaced the cam belt twice at least at huge expense, two alternators will have died (stops really quickly once the charge light comes on!), the whole computer will have gone mad four or five times, the CV joints will have given up probably twice, the electric LSD is strange at best, and you better have replaced the non serviceable gearbox oil at least twice or the transmission has probably smoked itself. Oh and the PCV valve will have been replaced four times. The stupid aerial on the roof corrodes and needs replacing regularly. Door lock mechanisms pack up regularly too well replaced 3 of them. Internal trim falls off. Rear engine mount then the flexible exhaust exhaust joint as a result of that.

Currently 265 000 Km and climbing.

Air con will not work over 30 degrees centigrade, when do they think I need it?

Perfectly reliable really!

Sorry end of rant, just my experience running a Gti off the top of my head.

Nice to drive though.

Hope it hasn't got Takata airbags!

[Mike Harte]

The above post by wnut is a classic example of why no-one should ever buy a car manufactured on a Monday or Friday!

However, I think that you may have been unlucky. I stopped buying new cars after my last Crown, and usually just buy larger engined cars that that have been p/x'd for tiddlers, and which the dealers really have no interest in trying to sell.

Choose wisely, and you can pick up some cracking bargains. My current gas guzzler is a 3 litre Jag, with about 130,000 on the clock which has sailed through the last 3 MOTs. Chose it after giving the tyres a good kicking, which didn't break any toes, so I knew it was a good'un.

[Mike Bell]

My truck odo shows 575000 kms. The rig is 9 years old, and apparently that's low mileage! Up until recently the engine's not needed to be touched except for servicing, but intermittent poor starting over last 12 months has just resulted in injector sleeve replacement, plus belt idlers as a precaution while in the vicinity. Last year the throttle pedal failed, and for longer than that the central locking has tried continually to lock me out. It succeeded once- in Brands paddock! Oh, and when I dropped the electric window in the driver's door yesterday the regulator fell apart..... Amazing how quickly you learn how to remove the interior trim.

The engine is (of course) OHC 24 valve common rail, high pressure injection and with fly by wire throttle. Adjustable valve timing and 'engine brake' as well. After the injector sleeve replacements, a check light came on going to Monza. Turned out to be turbo boost sensor show using a fault. Replaced. Also, performance was down since all the head work, and another session plugged into a PC yesterday bought up fault codes relating to the camshaft position sensor. Fitting new one on the morning with fingers crossed....

All modern tech, all very good for efficiency and ease of operation, all a pain in the butt when it goes wrong!

[midgetman]

Your truck is a youngster. Mine shows 456000 proper British MILES not soppy foreign KM. Daf 45-150 I think it's called. There do seem to be a lot on the road so I hope it's because they are reliable workhorses.

It's a bit like the car we're all pining for - electric windows and cruise control and that's all the options it has!

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

Lane keep assist systems.

As if Autoblog were reading TenTenths -

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/08/23/...und-ab-tile-33

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

As if Autoblog were reading TenTenths -

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/08/23/...und-ab-tile-33

Which is fine for single lane roads, but on motorways or dual carriageways they make people too lazy to move back into the left lanre.

[Akrapovic]

That's driving stupidity, not necessary complication. Earlier this week I was overtaking a people carrier on a dual carriageway when it drifted into my lane and gave me a hell of a fright.

I want everyone to have lane protection. That way there is less chance of a moron killing me and my kids.

[Mike Bell]

'Lane keeping assist' or 'lane departure warning' were never on my radar, if that's not a pun, but a couple of scary moments changed my mind. Not something that can be retro-fitted, unfortunately! Both incidents involved the infamous articulated truck 'blind spot' and near misses when an ignorant (of the problem) car driver decided it was good to cruise along beside my cab at the same pace. The legally required n/s side mirror is not a lot of help, as the lens is so convex the distortion is hideous! A dark coloured car on a black road in the truck shadow is virtually invisible.....

To help, I'm now investing in a '360 degree' 4 camera system that will give a birds eye view of the truck and anything around it on the monitor. Also, if I indicate to change lanes it will show the relevant camera view for that side. Same if reverse is engaged. Expensive but it could save an accident or even a cyclist's life. It also gives compliance to any voluntary or compulsory city driving requirement.

Not a warning system or driver assist device, but a very good way of monitoring your surroundings. Still requires me to check the info being displayed, but that's hopefully within my powers!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

The engine is (of course) OHC 24 valve common rail, high pressure injection and with fly by wire throttle. Adjustable valve timing and 'engine brake' as well. After the injector sleeve replacements, a check light came on going to Monza. Turned out to be turbo boost sensor show using a fault. Replaced. Also, performance was down since all the head work, and another session plugged into a PC yesterday bought up fault codes relating to the camshaft position sensor. Fitting new one on the morning with fingers crossed....

All modern tech, all very good for efficiency and ease of operation, all a pain in the butt when it goes wrong!

One of my Volvos suffered from a cam position sensor fault which manifested itself by the engine refusing to start sometimes, when the mechanic turned up it would miraculously start, as happens with most faults.
The throttle pedal is a common fault on these as are water pumps as they are made of toffee and elastic. Another problem is the lower mirror breaks off very easily when attacked with fists in road rage incidents.

[Mike Bell]

Water pump? I've got the pleasure of that to come then! Presume no nasty modern electronics involved though.....

OT, so apologies- major wheelspin in damp on way home from this morning's sensor fitment. Promising! Proof of cure will be when a loaded trailer is attached.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

OT, so apologies- major wheelspin in damp on way home from this morning's sensor fitment. Promising! Proof of cure will be when a loaded trailer is attached.

What, no traction control?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

What, no traction control?

Oh yes! Warning lights and symbols flashing up all over the dash...

[coppice]

Sometimes manufacturer's efforts are in vain; a former colleague (very smart, important and very easy on the eye ) bought one of those ghastly side door Peugeot 1007s . I have no idea why she did this . En route to a meeting with her in the awful Pug I noted that the ASR button was 'off' . 'Err, J*** , why have you turned that off , it can be really quite useful.' 'Can it? What does it do then ? Didn't want to turn it on - no idea what it is .'

But far more absurd is the gazillion Euros spent in design of a Bugatti Chiron , when its primary use will almost certainly be being driven by a Dubai teenager up and down Kensington High Street to impress girls ...

[Mike Bell]

It's no wonder the 1007 was withdrawn from sale. Apart from the looks, the electric sliding doors were so slow, if it was raining the interior and you got soaked while they operated. At least power tailgates and bootlids offer a little shelter, but even then you can get very wet waiting......

[Adam43]

From the other thread.

Originally Posted by grantp

Keyless entry and push button start, he drove there, she drove back. He still had the fob in his pocket. The car had not been stopped when they swapped over.

There was a spare key (and a spare car) at home. However she had been intending to stop for fuel on the way home but changed her mind. Just as well because absent the fob she would have been stranded at a fuel station, blocking a pump and with a baby in the car.

Which story, no doubt not uncommon these days, might suggest that a large number of not very special cars on the roads are too clever for our own good let alone theirs!

On keyless entry. This is a god send for parents with hands full of stuff and kids hanging on. I know people who will only buy a car with it. That bit is top, living with a car, something useful is brilliant and what the manufacturers are doing to add value to the consumer. So for some necessery.

Push button start. Well, if there is no key then you might as well. Although I think this has mainly come from a style thing from car “enthusiasts”.

Leave it too close to the house door and they can boost it to get in the car. Easy to solve. However it is a good example of criminal activity. Manufacturers invent something new, bad people work out how to get round it, manufacturers have something better, the cycle continues.

[JHamilton]

Regarding keyless entry and push button start, pretty soon you will have a key and an option for your phone. Yes, that is more complicated, but it seems to work and the chances you will be without a key or your phone are slim.

I have a Chrysler product with an old Merc key - You may have seen the plastic nubs that you put into a plastic hole and turn as if that is actually accomplishing anything. Maybe it is the engineer in me, but the stupidity of this drives me crazy.

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

My truck odo shows 575000 kms.

Originally Posted by midgetman

Your truck is a youngster. Mine shows 456000 proper British MILES not soppy foreign KM.

Trucks? What trucks? They sound like Rams?

[Adam43]

I can already unlock my car with my phone! Not that I do, but is this over complication? I’m not sure it’s pretty easy to do. The best bit is the sending a route to the sat. nav. I like this as you can consider this beforehand rather than being tempted to enter it, or speak it to the car, as you are driving.

It’s annoying I don’t have the functionality to warm the car, especially the seats, before I set off.

Is this needed in a car, nah, but it is useful. Better than not having it.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Adam43

From the other thread.



On keyless entry. This is a god send for parents with hands full of stuff and kids hanging on. I know people who will only buy a car with it. That bit is top, living with a car, something useful is brilliant and what the manufacturers are doing to add value to the consumer. So for some necessery.

Push button start. Well, if there is no key then you might as well. Although I think this has mainly come from a style thing from car “enthusiasts”.

Leave it too close to the house door and they can boost it to get in the car. Easy to solve. However it is a good example of criminal activity. Manufacturers invent something new, bad people work out how to get round it, manufacturers have something better, the cycle continues.

I don't doubt the benefits - my younger daughter has found keyless entry a huge help ever since the first vehicle she was able to get with it fitted.

The problem side of the benefit is the challenge that it adds when it doesn't work.

Recent the battery in her system either gave up quite suddenly or could not overpower the "noise" where she had parked. She couldn't lock it and couldn't start it.

Fortunately we discovered how to get to the emergency lock on the door (in case she needed it if I could not find any information about getting it started) and then the trick for starting when the fob battery (or at least the signal) is very low. I was able to explain that on the phone and she the practical gumption to be able to use the guidance and make things work.

I'm not sure there is necessarily a way to prevent theft of wireless comms security locks as they are currently provided.

Sure, in a house you could take steps to make the location of the fob a signal protected area. But then you could do something similar by having an auto signal stop and a button to turn it back on for a fixed period - say 10 mins or something.

However a couple of years ago I saw a video that seemed fairly genuine of a couple of people driving around at night with a laptop and a transmitter and some software that could run a security code generation routine and keep broadcasting until it hit a valid code. Keep transmitting the code until the car has been started and you are away.

Alternatively with a little extra hardware it seems one can program a fob once the access code is known and access to the car has been achieved.

All of that said, back in time when keys were used for so much that they wore down quite quickly is was said that there were only 10 different keys issued to the first generation of Transits. So you had a one in 10 chance (more or less) of getting into another transit is you had a key for one.

For what it is worth I saw this "feature" in action once and it worked very well.

[Adam43]

I have the perfect solution. I have a car registered in 1935. It doesn’t bother with those pesky key things to get in. It also has cable operated brakes, not bothering with those over complicated hydraulics. Although it does have some very complicated trafficactors.

I feel well qualified to comment in this thread.

[midgetman]

Grant I well remember a time when my father broke the key to his MK2 Cortina company car. We borrowed a key from a driver with a similar car parked a couple of spaces away to get in, at which stage he ripped out a few wires, twisted them together and we were off.

That was too easy to get into. Personally I worry about anything that doesn't require a physical item to start it; a key with an immobiliser code seems to me to be the most secure. Firstly you need the key, which can be stored securely, and not just any key, it needs the code. Anything wireless is vulnerable, if we are to believe the latest scare stories about our wifi.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please. I thought with "chipped" keys car crime had virtually disappeared, but it seems to be back on the rise again. Is that so? Or just scaremongering on TV?

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by grantp

All of that said, back in time when keys were used for so much that they wore down quite quickly is was said that there were only 10 different keys issued to the first generation of Transits. So you had a one in 10 chance (more or less) of getting into another transit is you had a key for one.

For what it is worth I saw this "feature" in action once and it worked very well.

In the 60s, my mechanic had a key ring resembling those big things that you see in old films about jails/prisons that held about 30 odd car keys, and they could open up virtually every car around.

They came in useful for Roger Taylor one Sunday when we were both racing at Snetterton. He had forgotten to bring the car key with him, and the team couldn't get into the car to get it off the trailer. It took less than a minute to find a suitable key from my mechanic's collection, and the door was open.

Worn down Ford keys in particular were the best, opening all sorts of makes.