New MSA Chairman

[Al Weyman]

yes and I wonder if some of what is putting people off entering their pride and joy is the argie bargy driving tactics they see on TV every weekend on the BTCC, certainly made me think twice. By comparison Track days seem a 'safe' option. Then there is all the other nonsence, the medicals, the tansponders, the joining fees, the licence fee, the entry fees, the MSA driven requirements to ditch perfectly good hardly used harnessess, overalls, helmets, seats, fire extinguishers, this is what is doing the real harm, do you really wonder why 'boring' trackdays are now so popular. I have a second car (in fact a third as well) I could enter but I now need, new extinguiser, transponder, belts, maybe seat and mountings and all that are currently fitted are in as new condition, madness.

[Peter Mallett]

This thread seems relevant to the conversation too.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

yes and I wonder if some of what is putting people off entering their pride and joy is the argie bargy driving tactics they see on TV every weekend on the BTCC, certainly made me think twice. By comparison Track days seem a 'safe' option. Then there is all the other nonsence, the medicals, the tansponders, the joining fees, the licence fee, the entry fees, the MSA driven requirements to ditch perfectly good hardly used harnessess, overalls, helmets, seats, fire extinguishers, this is what is doing the real harm, do you really wonder why 'boring' trackdays are now so popular. I have a second car (in fact a third as well) I could enter but I now need, new extinguiser, transponder, belts, maybe seat and mountings and all that are currently fitted are in as new condition, madness.

I don't wonder in the slightest why trackdays are so popular and good for them.

But we really must not confuse them with racing.

And if you think the drive to "safer" competition is going to do a U-turn anytime soon and allow people to race with equipment etc. that is less safe than can be delivered by regulation, you are, I submit, not being wholly realistic.

As far as I am concerned the right of anybody to put their lives at avoidable risk is crystal clear. It is just that the law and parliament don't see it quite that way. So if you want insurance against the risks to others, then you have to play to the insurer's rules. The MSA is driven very hard by the need to get insurance as cheaply as possible (so that it does not cost you more than necessary) and also by the need to fall in line with FIA requirements.

To take one example, helmets do decay with time. Would you fancy being a helmet manufacturer, once that fact was known, having to stand up in court and deny the need to put an expiry date on them? No, you would not and hence the regulatory need for the helmet to have a life.

As for barging and poor sportsmanship, have you actually watched some clubman's series this year? Stock Hatches may make good racing and there is plenty of perfectly fair driving but there is also plenty which is as rough as anything in the BTCC. Ditto some Caterhams races. So let's not have our glasses too rosy-tinted.

Regards

Jim

[The STIG]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Alan Gow knows about promotion, for one thing - something motorsport is in dire need of.

What are your concerns?

That he'll promote BTCC and give the other championships and club racing nothing.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by JimW

.,......
As for barging and poor sportsmanship, have you actually watched some clubman's series this year? Stock Hatches may make good racing and there is plenty of perfectly fair driving but there is also plenty which is as rough as anything in the BTCC. Ditto some Caterhams races. So let's not have our glasses too rosy-tinted.
Regards
Jim

= to reiterate what's been pointed out elsewhere - the series you mention are the very province of the youngsters who pick up these habits by watching TOCA before they come into racing themseves. TOCA is the *source* of the problem, but maybe the habit is so deeply ingrained that both cause and symptoms need treating....

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by The STIG

That he'll promote BTCC and give the other championships and club racing nothing.

If that was the case, I hardly think they'd give him the job

[Al Weyman]

So JimW you are telling me that a pair of Luke seat belts for example that I have in my black car and have been worn what, 30 times and being of a man made material have detoriated to such an extent that I have to change them where as ones in a road car can be good for what 20 years and used daily, thats absolute rubbish and I would also say that a crash helmet also being of a man made structure would also not deterioate if looked after correctly. Fire extingiusishers OK just maybe the old style ones produced green house gases (I doubt they are that harmful as this greenhouse crap is now an industry last year we were gonna fry now they are telling us a new ice age, yeah right), someone in the MSA decides plumbed in are safer than handheld sorry don't agree with that either and lets not go down the AMB/Cronic (spelling?) route because that was just flagerant meddling and promotion of a commercial product.

And MGDavid very valid point which I had first hand experience of when running the ModProds and had to caution a driver about his kamikazi tatics, his reply 'Have you watched the Touring Cars lately?' I rest my case.

[ascarmarshal]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I think you're reading too much into his comments, but at least quote them correctly - "They will be either cancelling or changing their date....our BTCC date is fixed on the calendar."

Britcar released an early provisional schedule. As I'm sure you are aware any schedule released that early is always subject to change. TOCA/MSA/MSV agreed a date, there was no evidence of bullying there. I dare say if the FIA suddenly decided to move the British GP to Brands on that weekend then TOCA would get moved as well.

The BRITCAR date is also on the MSA calender at the same time as the Banger racing sorry TOCA date. Why is Gow so certain that BRITCAR will be the one to change not TOCA?

[mark_l]

Alan Gow-Poacher turned Gamekeeper.

Club Racing and circuits that don't host his series, making money for him of course, will go to rot. How can he be an impartial and unbiased hand on the tiller of british motorsport?

Will we see Gow fighting to help keep Rockingham open to racing when the newly housed NIMBY's start moaning about the noise? I don't think so.

Gow has alot of influence in the MSA and has now bullied his way to the top, just like he bullies other race series that clash with his.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by ascarmarshal

The BRITCAR date is also on the MSA calender at the same time as the Banger racing sorry TOCA date. Why is Gow so certain that BRITCAR will be the one to change not TOCA?

Because TOCA is on the telly, attracts a crowd etc etc


Whereas Britcar is a club series with an over-inflated sense of its importance among its small breed of followers.

In my opinion.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by ascarmarshal

The BRITCAR date is also on the MSA calender at the same time as the Banger racing sorry TOCA date. Why is Gow so certain that BRITCAR will be the one to change not TOCA?

I've already answered that. It's the difference between provisional and confirmed

[ascarmarshal]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I've already answered that. It's the difference between provisional and confirmed

On the official MSA Calender is there is NO Provisional against the BRITCAR date. So by that the date is confirmed by the MSA

[redshoes]

We could talk this round in circles for ever. Have you never seen a date on the MSA calendar get changed? If it's that much of a problem to you why not ask the MSA.

[ascarmarshal]

All I am saying is that is just ONE example of a conflict of Interests that Alan Gow will have. Whilst he is CEO of TOCA is bound ( whether intentionally or not) to put TOCA before anything else. In my opinion you can't be boss of a race package organiser (TOCA) and be chairman of the Governing Body and be truely impartial. I for one would not trust his decisions to be fair and unbiased especially if there was a problem with TOCA. I feel for the good of the sport he should resign one or other of his positions. If he wants to stay as Chairman of the MSA he should resign as CEO of TOCA and sell any shares he has in TOCA. That is my opinion

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Because TOCA is on the telly, attracts a crowd etc etc


Whereas Britcar is a club series with an over-inflated sense of its importance among its small breed of followers.

In my opinion.

So in your opinion then nothing other than TOCA, F1 or events of that ilk would be worthy of our consideration?

I suspect not. However the problem many have with Gow is his perceived commercial attitude to "his" championships to the detriment of others. Yes Club racing is well down the commercial ladder but it keeps many businesses afloat (ask JMinsh). If our fears are founded on reality the circuits like Combe, Pembrey, Cadwell could conceivably disappear becuase the Chairman of the MSA doesn't need them.

Which is why I referred to the John Webb article thread. In there he's quoted as suggesting that the circuits do all the commercial organisation of events which would leave the MSA in its (IMO correct) role of safety and regulatory body.

Also wasn't there an issue in Australia when they went to V8s?

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! And I also disagree with Al re safety gear. Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

So in your opinion then nothing other than TOCA, F1 or events of that ilk would be worthy of our consideration?

No, but I'm saying it's obvious why such series need priority on dates.

[Peter Mallett]

Which they get anyway. Gow doesn't actually make a difference there but he is in a conflicting position and could influence those dates if he so wished.

[The STIG]

From the www.btcc.net forum.

Yesterday, 09:33 AM
Asp
Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1

MSA Chairman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Alan, congratulations on being appointed the new chairman of the MSA.

When you take on this role next year, what are you planning to do - do you have any particular projects or issues that you're going to introduce? Also, how will ensure there is no conflict of interests between your TOCA role and your MSA position?

Thanks


Asp

#2 Today, 03:16 PM
Alan Gow
Championship Administrator Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 313

There are no conflicts of interest with the BTCC....it is, after all, the MSA British Touring Car Championship.

This forum is for discussing BTCC issues only, so it is not appropriate for me to address MSA business on this forum.

However, thank you for your kind words.

Nice Dodge!

[The STIG]

And another one. this time I'm asking the question

Yesterday, 09:20 PM
F457 KEV
Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2

MSA Chairman

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Hi
How will your appointment as MSA chairman effect your role within the BTCC and club racing in the UK?



#2 Today, 03:14 PM
Alan Gow
Championship Administrator Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 313

My appointment will have absolutely no effect on my BTCC role - and I have never had much involvement with "club racing" (although that will likely change in the future).

basically, that sounds for all the world like - "I'm in charge and I intend to stay there. Club racing? What's that?" (note the inverted commas)

Now, I wonder if his future involvment with club racing is going to be constructive, or will it be an argument...

[Kicking-back]

I think you're reading far too much into Alan's comments there.

[ascarmarshal]

I have to agree with The Stig in both his comments and how he reads Gows comments.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

So JimW you are telling me that a pair of Luke seat belts for example that I have in my black car and have been worn what, 30 times and being of a man made material have detoriated to such an extent that I have to change them where as ones in a road car can be good for what 20 years and used daily, thats absolute rubbish and I would also say that a crash helmet also being of a man made structure would also not deterioate if looked after correctly. Fire extingiusishers OK just maybe the old style ones produced green house gases . . . ..

Number of times worn is not really the issue. Plastics such as seat belts and helmets are made of change their characteristics with time and, especially, exposure to sunlight and chemicals in the air.

All fine until you need them to be working and in the best possible condition. Also, do you not believe that techniques and equipment are improving with development? Cars are so much safer now than 20 years ago, ditto seat belts and helmets.

As an American driver said when asked why he bought an expensive Bell helmet; "If you've got a $10 head, wear a $10 hat".

Seems good to me.

I do agree it's your head but just think of the stink which is kicked up when a driver dies and how that would be magnified if it was found that they were wearing an old helmet which had failed. Never mind that a new one might have failed; that argument would never see the light of day.

Consider the fuss about people who want to make drivers of historic cars stop racing them or fit roll cages and belts.

Trackdays are (more-or-less) up to you, but the MSA has a duty to protect the sport by requiring easily taken non-intrusive measures for actual motorsport.

As for extinguishers, there used to be nice rally ones which were plumbed in (better in some circumstances) but which un-plugged and allowed you to use them as hand helds (better in some circumstances).

Frankly for race days the plumbed in extinguisher is a waste of time and space; let the marshals do their stuff. Trackdays are a bit different (and rallies are totally elsewhere. )

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

You may well be right KB after all why would they kill the Golden Goose.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by JimW

Number of times worn is not really the issue. Plastics such as seat belts and helmets are made of change their characteristics with time and, especially, exposure to sunlight and chemicals in the air.

Any evidence of this Jim? Most Race cars are kept inside, away from the light (along with most drivers )

.....just think of the stink which is kicked up when a driver dies.....

Extremely unsympathetic phrasing - unworthy of you.......
However, I've never seen a written report of an investigation into any race accident, something which we could perhaps learn from and improve our cars. It's all clouded in mystery.

...the MSA has a duty to protect the sport by requiring easily taken non-intrusive measures for actual motorsport

And perhaps more pressing, a desire to protect itself from litigation by using the measures laid down by a higher authority.

[retro_msport]

I dont think safety rules should be relaxed... and i'm no expert on plastics but i'm sure they do go brittle with age, old plastic bits have broken on me a few times, so its safer to replace a hemet and its easier than replacing a smashed skull or brain.. in other words is it worth the risk?
Harnesses... keep stretching a fabric and it will degrade, i'm sorry but i'm with the replace before it snaps brigade.

As for Gow allowing TC style driving standards, is it not the race directors, clerks of the course jobs to insure the driving standards are maintained.

And finally from me.... it is a bit worrying seeing "club racing" ...time will tell