Should there be penalties?

[Alpine Star]

Armco, if that is your uncolored opinion, what does Juan thinks he's driving? A building? Did DC think he was perhaps driving in a bumpercar?

I don't mind condemming a action, but not just because it happens with MS, neither based on past experiences... If you disagree with a action, it should be for the action, regardless of who does it to whom.

If you don't disagree with actions simulair made, why now?

[Jordi]

I think MS knew it was going to be very close and hoped Klien had seen him. Bad judgement from the everythingmeister...

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Alpine Star
years ago was wheelbanging in the corner something that was a part of racing

No, it wasn't.

[JohnSSC]

I guess I was watching a different race.

When Klein clocked Michael, the commentators on Speed (Varsha, David Hobbes and Steve Matchett) almost in unison asked if Klein was even looking (I think Hobbes's comment was: "How stupid was that?" - and he wasn't referring to Michael). The overhead shot shows Klein waaaay off line, Michael went in underneath and Klein just merrily turns in using the old "I checked my mirrors 4 corners ago and now I don't see him" excuse. One would think that the Ferrari just might be closing on him...

So the gripe for ages was nobody is passing. Now they are and the hue and cry is for penalties.

Makes perfect sense to me...

[Tweed]

If Sato had done to Klien what MS did he would have at least 2 threads on it here by now! I think a drive through would have been the lesser of two evils ( this 'next race' punishment thing is ridiculous ) for both DC and Schumacher. I don't think drive-throughs discourage the racing as much as people think.

[Kirk]

I am the last person to discourage overtaking, but these two incidents should both be investigated. MS has a bad habit of assuming that others will let him by any time he decides it is time to pass, especially so, with the bottom teams. His move was ambitious at best ... and DC's move, that was a sign, I'm afraid, of some desperation kicking in. Granted Ralf was held up slightly by Alonso but DC nailed him pretty good and had no chance to get by ... and in doing so set off a chain reaction that left RS fuming and out of the race. I also agree that drive-throughs are appropriate for flagrant fouls, the problem is: Who defines flagrant vs ambitious vs racing incident? And in doing so remain consistent. An FIA problem for sometimes it can be a tough call, that's for certain.

[Alpine Star]

Originally posted by Tweed
I think a drive through would have been the lesser of two evils ( this 'next race' punishment thing is ridiculous ) for both DC and Schumacher. I don't think drive-throughs discourage the racing as much as people think.

Problem is that if you misjudge someone, the punnishment can't be undone... now there's a 2 week period incase someone calls it wrong, wich is verry likely, if you read this thread.

Originally posted by Kicking-back
No, it wasn't.

Close racing, everyone used to go crazy if 2 cars were touching in the corners, the question who would come out on top... now we call for penalizing.. time sure flys...

Originally posted by JohnSSC

I guess I was watching a different race.

You and me both, i guess...

Originally posted by Kirk
MS has a bad habit of assuming that others will let him by any time he decides it is time to pass, especially so, with the bottom teams. His move was ambitious at best ...

I guess what has happened in the past weighs in the judgement? If being along the side of the other, same height, being on the inside, faster... wow, that is one bad judgementcall...

[Knowlesy]

Personally, I feel that penalties for incidents such as these should be abolished (and they pretty much havce been). These are racing incidents, although some are more questionable than others.

I remember JPM's move on Schuey at the Nurburgring last year, and the stewards began an investigation into it. As Nigel Roebuck put it at the time: "we wondered if the authorities were investigating a case of overtaking."

Indy'03 was much the same. Rash decisions ruin races and reduce the likelihood of people attempting to overtake.

So i don't think the Sunday incidents should go penalised really. There hyave been much worse.

I still think both moves were absolutely moronic in their execution however!!!

[Marbot]

We'll keep on talking about these incidents as long as the braking zones keep decreasing,on a straight that's over a km long only the last few metres are used for braking from 320kph(200mph)is it any wonder these incidents keep reoccurring.

[Tweed]

It's the old consistency in the rules argument again. At least Mr. Hussein's gone, he of the Siverstone 1998 farce.

If the Schumacher/Klien roles had been reversed though, I'd bet my ( dad's ) house that Klien would have been ' under investigation ' by the stewards.

Anyway, the current technical regs discourage overtaking more than the penalties.

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Alpine Star

I guess what has happened in the past weighs in the judgement? If being along the side of the other, same height, being on the inside, faster... wow, that is one bad judgementcall...

Yes, the past does come into play, subconsciously or otherwise, it's only human nature. MS went about the task of overtaking Klein just as he would if the blue flag was waving and he was lapping him. Trouble is, he wasn't, it was for position and Klein had a right to that corner. I suggest that you view it again. Does anyone have a link to the stream?

[Slippy Diff]

If the incident involving Schumacher and Klein was during a touring car race, I have no doubt that a lot of you would all be saying that it was an exciting move and is all part of racing and penalties would not even be mentioned. If it happened during a clubbie, those involved would have been hauled before the C of C !!!

[Alpine Star]

Originally posted by Kirk
Yes, the past does come into play, subconsciously or otherwise, it's only human nature.

Well, if it involves judgementcalls, you can't honestly expect me to believe that it is a fair and unbias view then.

Originally posted by Kirk

MS went about the task of overtaking Klein just as he would if the blue flag was waving and he was lapping him. Trouble is, he wasn't, it was for position and Klein had a right to that corner. I suggest that you view it again. Does anyone have a link to the stream?

I could suggest thesame, but i doubt if it would make any diffirence....

Klien left a lot of room and drove much to the left, Michael placed his car on the inside, came to thesame hight and then klien started to steer in as they both entered the corner. If you don't believe me, see for yourself if you can find a stream. We could all blame Klien for not looking, but i don't... you could blame Michael for wanting to move ahead and race, I don't....

I call it a race-incident, just because it is something that can happen, not blaming either party for wanting to race. But as you've allready told me, it is human to be prejudiced, that isn't a real problem, as long as you remember that it might be your mind playing tricks with you on a "wishfull thinking" base.