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4 Oct 2021, 13:04 (Ref:4076921) | #26 | |||
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Richard |
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4 Oct 2021, 14:43 (Ref:4076938) | #27 | |||
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You are right, I should have said everything within reason. Quote:
I might agree with that if not for the other reasons listed in the first post. Better wet race performance would be just one of the many advantages of going back to smaller wheels and tyres. |
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4 Oct 2021, 15:37 (Ref:4076947) | #28 | ||
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Just a quick comment about fitting mudguards over the wheels to reduce the spray created poor visibility. Surely this would also be counter productive as the water displaced from the track is unable to dissipate into the air, and can only fall back down onto the track surface behind the wheels and therefore making the track no drier?
maybe (just maybe) I'm over-thinking things here... |
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4 Oct 2021, 17:57 (Ref:4076959) | #29 | ||
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You call out a combination of general improvements for dry weather and wet weather. Depending upon who you ask here, some (myself included) would say that the dry weather "improvement" you mention are mostly not improvements and would in fact be negatives. The same applies to the idea of reducing the diameter. For example. Lower un-sprung weight. As compared to what? A future 2022 car? Maybe so. But a gain "so what" as everyone is in the same boat. Does any of this really improve the overall racing of F1? I am extremely doubtful about narrower cars making it easier to pass. I am on the fence about extending the length of the braking zone to improve passing. But lean toward it not being any type of magic bullet. I think that overall. This discussion was kicked off due to the Spa rain race. That people were upset about it. And the natural inclination is to try to "solve" the problem. Was it unfortunate for fans, teams and F1 in general? Yes. But 30 days on, nobody is talking about it. If this "problem" (and I view the problem as "inability to race at all in heavy rain") was to become more frequent then maybe options should be examined. But right now, this is the very definition of a "corner case". This stuff is pretty rare. There are any number of other potential issues that might cause problems. It makes little or no sense to try to prevent relatively rare situations that don't have significant lasting impact. Especially if the solutions are baggage (physical and financial) that have to be carried all of the time (wet, dry or otherwise) I believe the cost to solve these problems is not worth the benefit. I am very curious about your thoughts on this being a corner case and why you think it needs to be solved? Richard |
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4 Oct 2021, 20:35 (Ref:4076977) | #30 | ||
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following on that...if they were to go to narrower wet tires, would all the tires have to become narrower because that would be costly.
although such an expense could justify artificial wet weather races in order to use said tires! im also curious to know if any tire from the narrower past (a Bridgestone or Michelin wet tire from the height of the tire war for example) could have dealt with the amount of water and continuing level of rain that occurred at Spa? i suppose what i am getting at, was this race to far past acceptable for any race of any era using whatever equipment? |
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4 Oct 2021, 21:04 (Ref:4076979) | #31 | ||
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I may be just imagining this, but don't F1 already use narrower wheels and tyres for wets? And maybe also for the intermediates, as well?
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4 Oct 2021, 23:14 (Ref:4076989) | #32 | |
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Not so long ago everyone was moaning about the lack of wet races to add some chance to the results.
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4 Oct 2021, 23:33 (Ref:4076990) | #33 | ||
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IIRC, they are the same width wheels. Maybe a slightly different type profile, but nothing that dramatic. They have a slightly bigger diameter to raise the car a tad.
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5 Oct 2021, 05:09 (Ref:4077009) | #34 | |||
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All 7 types of tyre currently used are 305mm (front) and 405mm (rear) wide tread. The slicks are 670mm diameter, inters 674mm (front) 675mm (rear) and wets 680mm. From 2022, width is remaining the same, diameter increasing by 50mm. |
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5 Oct 2021, 07:25 (Ref:4077019) | #35 | ||
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6 Oct 2021, 15:11 (Ref:4077211) | #36 | |||||||
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As said, since wet races are the most interesting to watch (I think most would agree), every opportunity (within reason ) to improve the chances of the cars being able to run in the more wet conditions is welcome. Quote:
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F1 cars have been gain more and more weight each year and it's getting out of hand. Some were because of safety reasons (good) and some in my view are the result of ill chosen technical regulation (current drivetrain and now 2022 wheels sizes). Quote:
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I just don't appreciate regulations that are chosen for marginal gains or for the wrong reasons (in my book) when the disadvantages are so numerous. |
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6 Oct 2021, 16:54 (Ref:4077224) | #37 | |||||||
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Regarding aero issues. That is a red-herring. Overall diameter is generally the same. If they are concerned about the delta with respect to aero by the wheels themselves then they can aero covers if they want. Which I believe is exactly what F1 is doing for 2022. There are pros and cons to both 13" vs 18" wheels. The smaller 13" have lost that battle. Quote:
Yes, I was overly broad when I said "nobody" is talking about this. I expect there is a very, very small group who is pushing for this. You included. But when looking at the big picture. The advocates for smaller width tires (especially to try to increase the amount of time spent running in wet weather) is effectively zero. Does it make you wrong? Not up to me. IMHO, it does question the validity of the size of the problem and solution you propose. Apologies for my bluntness, and I really don't mean to offend, but IMHO, this proposal is very Don Quixote-esque. Quote:
Can you provide some data? Look back over a few decades and total up the number of races cancelled due to extreme wet weather. And what is the number of wet laps run under safety car vs. green flag, but wet conditions? I don't have the numbers. My gut tells me that cancelled races and ratio of safety vs. green laps (in wet) is extremely low. I am not trying to make this argument FOR this. If I was, I would show the data. Show the benefit (especially with respect to what you think it will do with regards to wet weather outcomes) I think it's up to you to make the case and that should include actual data. Show me where you are right and I am wrong with data. Even then. Lets look at the recent spa race. How much of a change would have to have been made to the tires and cars to really keep the spray down enough to allow racing? I suspect it would have taken drastic changes (so drastic as to gather no real support) to the tires and cars to make that happen. It will always eventually rain so hard that whatever solution you bring is not enough. Richard |
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6 Oct 2021, 19:30 (Ref:4077242) | #38 | |||||||||
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So that an absolutely fine goal. I'm not arguing to stick with the 13'' wheels and balloon tyres. I'm arguing, keep the benefits of the lower side wall, but put it on a smaller 16'' wheel. Had they done that the tyre diameter would've only grown 10mm instead of the 60mm it has grown now. You would've had all the benefits of the lower side wall, but without the drawbacks of adding so much weight, drag and dirty air by going to the 18'' wheel. Quote:
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Last edited by Taxi645; 6 Oct 2021 at 19:47. |
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6 Oct 2021, 19:54 (Ref:4077247) | #39 | ||
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any changes to tires and aero is going to create other unintended complications and even if a solution is found for better racing in the rain, next year there will be a new car design and new problems to overcome.
so i wonder if there are other ways to crack this egg via other technologies to consider, specifically if the main issue here is visibility (caused from the spray). this may seem far fetched (or not even possible), but solutions involving real time telemetry, using different parts of the light spectrum, and/or augmented reality overlays fitted to either glasses or the drivers visors that they wear during wet races could improve their ability to see in both the wet and dark. grip in the wet is never going to be as good as in the dry so that issue is one drivers will have to live with but if improving their ability to see could be done without changing a race car then surely that is the better solution. probably should watch less Sci-F1! |
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7 Oct 2021, 00:54 (Ref:4077264) | #40 | ||||
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Cheers. Richard |
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10 Feb 2022, 06:26 (Ref:4098028) | #41 | |
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https://www.racefans.net/2022/02/09/...lt-verstappen/
Another driver pointing to the poor visibility with the new tyres: “For me actually, the biggest thing is just the view in the cockpit with these big tyres,” he said. “To hit an apex in some tight corners is a bit more difficult. Red Bull’s chief engineer Paul Monaghan: “It’s certainly put a bit of weight onto the car, the tyre is bigger overall, so it has a fairly significant aerodynamic effect. |
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10 Feb 2022, 17:59 (Ref:4098119) | #42 | |||
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They also looked ridiculous -- like they have been squashed -- at 1.8m wide instead the traditional 2.15m of a Grand Prix. 2m is not fully corrected, but it is a darn sight better than 1.8m! 1.8m wide may be fine for Formula Ford or Formula Three, but for top class Formula One cars it looks ridiculous. For reference, the GP2 were always at least 1.9m (so 10cm wider than F1) even since 2005 as Dallara had more common sense than to make super narrow cars! Indycar & Champcar are 2.05m width IIRC. Ironically narrow cars make the dirty air problem WORSE as the tyres are now directly in front of the floor, so you need more bargeboards and other stuff to push the tyre wakes out beyond the sides of the car and therefore the cars are more sensitive to the bargeboards and winglets working correctly. Did the '98 1.8m or '93 2m cars improve racing compared to '97 or '91 when they were wider? Quite the opposite! As for advocating for 13", many teams ran 15" fronts in the 1980's when it was permitted. 13" is just an arbitrary regulation. Of course it would be better if the total diameter was still 670-680mm (and 645mm diameter on the front, which was Goodyear had, but Bridgestone used the full 660mm when they came into the spoort), of course it would be better if the front tyres were 245mm wide like in the 90's instead of 305mm and the cars therefore had a more rearwards weight distribution and were shorter. The new rules originally had the front tyres at 270mm section width, down from the 305mm, but I guess the teams had their say and didn't want to redesign their stuff so much. The new rules originally had the maximum wheelbase at 3400mm, but the teams had their say and were only prepared to have a wheelbase of 3600mm (so ~100mm less rather than ~300mm less than 2021, wheelbase was actually one of the only dimensions of the car which was free choice under the old rules). Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 10 Feb 2022 at 18:22. |
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10 Feb 2022, 18:14 (Ref:4098120) | #43 | ||
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10 Feb 2022, 21:03 (Ref:4098153) | #44 | ||
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speaking of smaller cars, and the R25 specifically as i brought it up in the other thread but really all of those cars from the mid to latter part of the 2000s were not always nice to look at with all their winglets and antennae.
the mind plays tricks maybe, but those smaller less wide cars weren't exactly providing better racing then what we are seeing today with the larger cars no? |
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10 Feb 2022, 22:04 (Ref:4098162) | #45 | |||
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Do people really think the narrow second car on grooved tyres with its FIA-mandated rectangular nose cross-section, looks better than the wide former car on slick tyres with its elegant round nose... Really? The FIA only ever reduced the width of the rear tyres too, not the fronts. That's why when the tyres were scaled up equally front and rear in '17, we ended up with ridiculously wide front tyres. Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 10 Feb 2022 at 22:34. |
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11 Feb 2022, 09:30 (Ref:4098206) | #46 | |
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Those cars with winglets were horrible. It really went too far and it was soo good when they finally got rid of them. I don't mind odd looking cars, like the 6 wheeled Tyrrell, just as long as the bodywork is clean. Shame they allowed some of those ugly winglets back in 2017, but they seem to have recognised their mistake and we will have cars with beautiful in 2022
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11 Feb 2022, 10:15 (Ref:4098219) | #47 | |||
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True, but the F2 cars don't have the the wake deflector on top off the tire like the new F1 cars which add, say 5cm to the height. 5cm is exactly the difference between 18 and the 16 inch wheel I'm proposing. I will say that with the new cars the suspension attachment to the hub is now inside the new larger 18-inch wheels. I don't know if that would be possible with 16-inch wheels as well. Quote:
I would not be surprised as this or next year the cars will be equally fast as the previous generation and the year after they will be quicker still. So faster cars should not have been an argument against the ground effect cars. |
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11 Feb 2022, 12:39 (Ref:4098240) | #48 | |||
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I wouldn't be against narrower front tires; less drag, aero disturbance and lower weight. Together with a lighter still 670mm diameter tire on 16-inch wheels with the same tire wall height as the 18-inch ones and think it would be an improvement in: - Visibility. - Weight. - Lower centre of gravity. - Less drag. - Less aero distrubance. Quote:
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11 Feb 2022, 13:13 (Ref:4098255) | #49 | ||
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I would say that the answer to this question is that it isn't. This doesn't mean that the problem can be blamed on the new (mandatory) tyres, the designers need to lift the drivers up a bit higher to compensate.
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11 Feb 2022, 13:52 (Ref:4098261) | #50 | ||
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The reduction in visibility is real. The slightly taller tires and the aero bit that goes over it does reduce the sightlines from before. But... In the grand scheme of things your argument that this means (or is a strong argument for) moving to either narrower or shorter tires is empty because other top level series all the way up to saloon cars have it much much worse and drivers deal with it. And yes, there are accidents in prototype racing which can be attributed to visibility challenges. Just extend your argument to Karts vs most every thing else. You clearly see over the wheels. You have excellent visibility. How are drivers able to make anything other than Karts work today? I am not sure if I can drive safely to the grocery store later today. I can't begin to see the corners on anything? I think what you are seeing in that quote. Is the same comments you see when open wheel drivers move to closed cockpits. They commonly call out that they just can't do what they did previously (and probably privately wonder how anyone drives those cars quickly). But they just have to adjust their style. It is more challenging, but no so unsafe that all racing should be open wheeled with tiny wheels (i.e. Karts) If you want a F1 visibility issues to try to solve, how about the challenges they face in seeing who is beside/behind them? Richard |
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