"Why Won't The Other Kids Play With Me?"

[Minardi fan]

Originally posted by Bononi


Who's number one Sauber ?

There isn't a number one Sauber - both drivers have equal no.1 status.

[Liz]

"Did anyone ask DC or JMP to drive for Ferrari?"

Yes. JPM said categorically he would not drive for them while TGF is there. DC said he was already driving for McLaren and was satisfied there, thanks.

Also of course Jacques said he'd rather be boiled in oil than drive with TGF, Trulli said thanks but no thanks, I'd rather be No. 1 at Jordan, and Alesi said although driving for Ferrari again was his favourite dream, he would not go there while TGF....

Tristan, who told you that there was no Move-Over clause in the current Ferrari contracts?

[Bononi]

Originally posted by Minardi fan

There isn't a number one Sauber - both drivers have equal no.1 status.

Yes MFan !

I meant $TATU$ !!!!

[Valve Bounce]

I think Montezemolo made it very clear to Rubens last year that TGF was the numero uno at ferrari, and that everything would be done to ensure TGF won the WDC. I think this has had an effect on Rubens psyche and his confidence is affected to the point where he states (in todays autorace.com) that he could have won in Spain because TGF had problems and Mika had problems. He didn't mention Ralf. However, to claim he could win because others had problems is a worry - he used to claim he could win anytime.

[Liz]

Another case for EJ? Poor Rubens, he's got Damon's Disease ("If everyone else's car breaks, I CAN WIN!") that he had in his last season.

That in a nutshell is why nobody wants to play with TGF.....

[Orange]

I think what TGF needs is some young guy with fire in his eyes to come up and drive the heck out of a Ferrari without even worrying about his teammate...

All these older racers have their egos wrapped up in what job they take, and are afraid to race on an even field with Schumi, where they will have no excuse. The guy is the best, but he needs someone to come and give him a scare... none of the "established" racers are willing to do that.

[Bononi]

Rest your case Orange...

Ferrari will never do it with TGF in action.

[Wrex]

Thank You Bononi. And Damon its a fair question, if Herbert was quicker than TGF, why was'nt it TGF that fell off the pace after the data transfer ceased. What your saying does'nt make sense. TGF is a true (albeit unpopular) WDC. Hill was an also ran that drove the right car.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Orange
All these older racers have their egos wrapped up in what job they take, and are afraid to race on an even field with Schumi, where they will have no excuse. The guy is the best, but he needs someone to come and give him a scare... none of the "established" racers are willing to do that.

You got this spot on Orange. Its real easy to sit back on the "I won't get equal treatment" garbage. Ferrari, like all F1 teams, want to win, and not just this year, but every year to come.

If a younger driver, such as JV, DC or Montoya, came along and out-qualified & out-raced TGF on a regualr basis, they would get behind him in a heartbeat. They know TGF will retire eventually, and would obviously back his faster succesor rather than lose championships.

The reality is that these drivers prefer to say it was the car that beat them rather than the man, as there sensitive little ego's can't accept that someone is better than them.

The fact is - if you really wanted to PROVE you were the best, you would jump @ the Ferrari drive and beat TGF, if you could.

[Victor Broccoli]

The Herbert thing:

Okay, I'm not very sure, so if I'm wrong, don't crucify me.

But, wasn't the thing that Herbert could NOT see Schumi's data, but Schumi could see Herberts?

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Victor Broccoli
The Herbert thing:

Okay, I'm not very sure, so if I'm wrong, don't crucify me.

But, wasn't the thing that Herbert could NOT see Schumi's data, but Schumi could see Herberts?

I'm not sure either Vic as I have never heard this. one way or the other. But even if it were true, what are you saying, MS speed came from Herberts data? I doubt it. And has Herbert secretly been working for Ferrari all these years?

I say again - If your a real F1 driver and can beat TGF - step forward - accept the Ferrari drive (if it gets offered to you) - and prove it. Ferrari will back anyone that can out-pace Michael, deliver championships and do it all at a cheaper price.

I doubt Senna or Prost would have backed away from the challenge. If the fastest car had a spare seat - they would have taken regardless of who was driving the other car.

[laxman]

Precisely wrex.No one wants to race with TGF on level ground because they know they cant beat him,atleast they think they cant beat him.
Also let me get this right.Has montoya said that he will not race for ferrari as long as TGf is there.
If thats the truth,then mr. toya dosent deserve a single world championship,perhaps not even a single race win!!
When you have just entered f1,you must be looking for challenges,and not running away from them.
HE could have said soemthing like 'he is happy at williams' or something like that.

There is no no1 no2 initially.If you proove to the team that you are teh better driver,they will get behing you.
....and please spare me the excuses.

[RussianFriend]

Originally posted by laxman
No one wants to race with TGF on level ground because they know they cant beat him,atleast they think they cant beat him.
Also let me get this right.Has montoya said that he will not race for ferrari as long as TGf is there.
If thats the truth,then mr. toya dosent deserve a single world championship,perhaps not even a single race win!!
When you have just entered f1,you must be looking for challenges,and not running away from them.
HE could have said soemthing like 'he is happy at williams' or something like that.

Since when to drive for Ferrari became the only way for the champion? Maybe for its fans it seems so... But one can win behind the other wheels. Why should young promising racer waste his efforts in menthal battles for Montesemolo's and Todt's respect, while he has much more in his current job? Just for pleasure of wearing red?

These pride Italian may appreciate only titules. TGF had singed with Ferrari being already twice WDC. Any other racer (except Mika Hakkinen) wouldn't get the same welcome. Ferraries bosses don't like to train the champions like Williams, Benneton or McLaren do. They pirated the ready one raised by Flavio. None usual driver without titules will be appraised there.

[Liz]

Agree with Russian Friend. Montoya is willing and able to beat TGF in his Williams - he has made that very clear in both his actions on the track and what he says to the press (that TGF is only another racer and can be beaten, which is not at all "it's the car that's beating me ...")

And anyone who remembers the Senna/Prost War knows full well that Prost's constant complaint was that Senna was getting all the best bits and a secret special engine that allowed him to beat Prost even when all the wheels fell off his (Senna's) car. Some of this was later confirmed to him by Honda people, although a certain amount of it was political piffle designed to make Senna paranoid.

My point remains: If TGF is the best guy who ever steered an RC car around a track, why does he have to have it in writing that no one is allowed to beat him? Do you really think that if Montoya raced for Ferrari and started to outqualify and out run him, that suddenly his tires would go missing, his pit stops would be strangely timed, and he would find himself shouldered off the piste by some German fellow who "didn't see him"? Fortunately he knows that. His daddy didn't raise no fool.

[Tristan]

And I will say it again:

APPARENTLY, there IS NO #1/#2 status at Ferrari. In their contracts at least, TGF and Rubens are EQUAEL. I must admit I can't remember where this was from, but I swear that in the initial contract negotiations a couple of years ago, Rubens demanded the equal status clause.

Whether or not this is true in reality is another matter.....

That being said, I DO agree wit Wrex/Orange it al. WHY SHOULD someone always be subserviant to Herr Schumi?? OK, he probably IS the best driver out there, but he IS human! He IS beatable! So go on, DO IT!! As yet, the only teammate of his who I've thought to be capable of this was Eddie, but he would always have to bow down to him. Shame.

I know this might be a heretic thin to say, but as a Ferrari fan, I'm not sure that TGF even BEING there is the best for the TEAM. I'm beginning to think that what with him being so dominant, the uses and pressures of another driver are being wasted. However, as we have seen, splitting the points at McLaren can end up COSTING the team. I don't know which is best. What I DO know is that Ralfie/JPM are a stunning pair of drivers who seem to be able to wrok together and push each other.

What I'm trying to say is, is it time for FERRARI to move on from TGF??

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Liz
Montoya is willing and able to beat TGF in his Williams - he has made that very clear in both his actions on the track and what he says to the press (that TGF is only another racer and can be beaten, which is not at all "it's the car that's beating me ...")

Liz, I reckon the 2002 WDC will be driving the Williams. I am not sure whether Ralf or JPM will win the WDC next year, but it will be one of these two. My heart says JPM, but my brain says Ralf.

[Red]

Rrrrrrright Liz. And (according to reports) I also strongly refuse to drive for Ferrari as long as Barrichello is in the neighborhood. Not the journalists, Luca di or Jean Todt, did any of these guys ask them?

“why does he have to have it in writing that no one is allowed to beat him?” Because in ’99, by not issuing teamorders McLaren almost lost the WDC. Sheese, even Frenzen/Jordan had realistic chances at one point! My point remains:..... let’s try this way. Actually in Barrichello’s contract does not say that he must move over (Tristan, you heard that from Barr himself). In Eddie’s yes, it was. That was a compliment! For Eddie. Schumacher reckoned that Eddie might be faster sometimes. But it was no need in Barri’s case! My point remains: Eddie and (lets say for the sake of conversation) Rubens are not allowed to beat Schumacher. But in that case werent’t they supposed to be close behind him?

“Do you really think that if Montoya raced for Ferrari and started to outqualify and out run him, that suddenly his tires would go missing, his pit stops would be strangely timed, and he would find himself shouldered off the piste by some German fellow who "didn't see him"?”. No. You make a big mistake. You assume that Ferrari are there to make Schumacher look good. That’s very naive. They want to win races, as many as possible. And Championships. But they are realistic; they know that the opposition is strong so they try to maximize their chances. Luca di doesn’t hire fools you know... If Jua... no, not him, he’s already refused them. If the second Ferrari driver out-paces Schumacher on regular basis, then all their gratitude will go to Schumacher but all their support will go to whoever that genius will be.

[Orange]

Exactly!

Wow, I make a point, then everyone comes along and helps explain it for me! what a forum!

[Damon]

Ross Brawn has also said that Schumcher has a say in driver choice for his team mate. While he didn't say 'he makes the choice', Todt did insinuate that TGF has quite a large say in the matter. Basically if Montoya or someoune as quick were to want a drive along side Schumacher they would probably be turned down. Besides TGF sufficates the ability of his team mates as he gains clear favoritism from personel within the team, most notably Todt and Brawn.

[laxman]

Friend,
Just take another look at what you have quoted from my post.look at the last line.I said that he should say that he is doing well with williams and shouldnt say he wont race for ferrari because his teammate would be TGF.Thats ridiculous.
Ferrari is not the only way to win the championship...but it is one of the ways to win it.Im sorry to disappoint all the BMW fans,but they wont have a shot at the title this year.ferrari have a good shot at the title this year and will probably have a good shot for a few years to come.And im sorry that im using strong words,but you must be a FOOL to reject such a good team on such ridiculous reasons.
He is arrogant,which is good to handle the mental pressures when you are contesting for the championship.But if he goes on like this ,he will end up trying to win a championship in the present minardi or benetton car.


Ok,now for the TGF choice of teammate,
yes,he does have a choice.What else did you think??
He single handedly brought them from a mid field team to one of the top teams in two years.Ferrari can never forget this.Look what happened to benetton after he left!!
The ferrari team and fans are very passionate.They wont allow any driver to come to the team and immediately expect them to go all out in helping him.If anybody wants the no1 status in ferrari,they have to first proove that they can beat TGF consistently.If anybody else wants such a status in any team,they have to first proove themselves in some other team.

heres an example.Look at JV.whats he achieving in the BAR.Forget about his podium place.All the drivers on teh podium were lucky one way or the other.HE has also been beaten by OP several times.HE would be the TGF of BAR if he was as good as TGF.But he isnt.And I believe no one is as good as TGF at present.

but of course several of you dont agree.But my post is getting too long.One last point....just think about it...Compare teh amont of discussion about TGf with teh other drivers.That in itself prooves that every member of teh forum knows he is the best now.

[Orange]

OK...

First of all, I will not be the one who says TGF is not the best out there... but I will say that the TGF-JV comparison is somewhat unfair... First of all, although Ferrari was a midfield team before TGF arrived they had won WDCs before, whereas BAR started completely from scratch... plus, who would you rather have, Brawn or Pollock? the list goes on... In any case, I'm not going to say that JV is better than MS, but rather that your comparison is unfair... And don't discount his efforts at BAR he has worked hard there.

Actually, I am somewhat disappointed that Jaques refuses to take the bull by the horns, and challenge TGF as his teammate. I figured if anyone on the grid had the balls for it, it was him, but I guess not...

[Victor Broccoli]

Wrex: I'm referring to when they were teamed up at Benetton. As far as I can tell, at the beginning, both drivers shared data. When Herbert was running right with Schumi, Schumi no longer supplied data.

So, the point was that Schumi could see where and what Herbert was doing that was better than he, but Herbert could not see where and what Schumi was doing that was better than he. Mainly this is in reference to setups, driving line, braking points, etc.

[Liz]

Tristan, I think Ferrari is beginning to agree with you. Look at the list of pilots they are bruiting about that they would like to hire! And they are all saying it is because TGF won't talk contracts...could it be that they too are getting tired of having to knuckle under? I don't know. I'm just wondering.

DC, Trulli and JPM have all personally confirmed that they were contacted about the Ferrari drive. I hardly think they would say this in public if it isn't true, as Ferrari could quite easily deny it and make them look stupid.

Anyway I'd like to see two other guys at Ferrari but not Jacques. He deserves a better end to his career than to be mercilessly dissected by the Italian press and compared disparigingly to his father. If you want to wish him a good car, put him in a McLaren. (Make him realise that for the sake of a good drive, he can dress nice and behave himself to sponsors, first, though.) In a McLaren he would make TGF look like last year's news.

[senna12]

I agree with Liz, and I think Jacques knows it too. He's not afraid of Schumi, and he'd give him all he could handle in a McLaren. Michael's influence now is apparently so pervasive that it smothers the number 2. No one can deny he's earned it, but it should not be a surprise that the senior pilots in F1 just wouldn't want to deal with the aggravation of trying to win support within the team. It looks like it's going to have to be a young hotshoe in the seat, with Michael's approval, of course. But I'll bet Michael wouldn't mind the psyched out Rubens hanging around and covering his butt.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by senna12
But I'll bet Michael wouldn't mind the psyched out Rubens hanging around and covering his butt.

Strange that you came up with this; autorace.com said that Rubens wouldn't be there next year because of his lack of performance, but this is unfair because his car broke down in Spain, otherwise he would have won. Maybe that wouldn't have pleased either TGF nor ferrari if he overtook TGF.