[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 21

[ascarracinguk]

Right. So clear cut penalty for Vettel then. A breach of sporting regulations 29.1, not stopping his car when requested to do so. As confirmed by Jo Bauer

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...ng-weighbridge
https://www.fia.com/file/74025/downl...token=8Dk4HzgE

For the benefit of Sprinkles....it’s not nothing, and is on page 24 of the regs if you want to brush up on it

I’m happy to concede Hamilton did something wrong if the stewards deem him to have broken a rule....it was clumsy driving nevertheless

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Was mentioned on the coverage that drivers have to be pushed off the weighbridge not drive off it

From Autosport -
Once the weighing was complete, Vettel drove off the scales under the car's own power - which Bauer said "destroyed" them.

"As the driver was not following the instructions and further compromised the continuation of the weighing procedure, I am referring this matter to the stewards for their consideration," Bauer stated.

Vettel has been summoned to the stewards for allegedly breaching Article 29.1.a.i, which tells drivers to stop their engines when being weighed "and/or" Article 12.1.1.i of the FIA's International Sporting Code, which refers to the "failure to follow the instructions of the relevant officials for the safe and orderly conduct of the event".

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Here's the onboard, so people can make sure they've seen it before commenting: https://streamable.com/h8fo3

As it shows, Vettel is in a hurry but he explicitly follows the instructions of the guy when he waves him off, the guy even gives him an extra push.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by gert

This has nothing to do with Vettel or not, but I think they should not weigh cars while the session is going on. They should/could do so after qualifying is completed, or after Q1 / Q2 is over.

The reason they stopped that is because the teams would adjust the car for the final run and have it weighed as legal. The obvious example is "water cooled brakes" where the teams ran illegally underweight and topped up the water towards the end of the race to be legal. I recall, but can't find a link about it, a team which did the same in qualifying and for the final run would add a set of tyres that had water in it to meet the minimum. Madness.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Here's the onboard, so people can make sure they've seen it before commenting: https://streamable.com/h8fo3

As it shows, Vettel is in a hurry but he explicitly follows the instructions of the guy when he waves him off, the guy even gives him an extra push.

And refuses to turn his engine off as confirmed by Jo Bauer, so DOESNT explicitly follow instructions... therefore a breach of the regs

Also do my eyes deceive me or did Vettel drive at the FIA Steward before he had moved out of the way. Naughty boy....could have taken his ankles off

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Right. So clear cut penalty for Vettel then. A breach of sporting regulations 29.1, not stopping his car when requested to do so. As confirmed by Jo Bauer

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...ng-weighbridge
https://www.fia.com/file/74025/downl...token=8Dk4HzgE

For the benefit of Sprinkles....it’s not nothing, and is on page 24 of the regs if you want to brush up on it

I’m happy to concede Hamilton did something wrong if the stewards deem him to have broken a rule....it was clumsy driving nevertheless

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

And refuses to turn his engine off by Jo Bauer, so a breach of the regs

Rule 29.1 is in regards to drivers skipping the weighing procedure and driving past through to the team's garage. It states that if you miss the FIA garage you will be instructed to go back to the FIA garage. Vettel absolutely did not miss the garage and did not violate 29.1.

I'm reading the same regulations as you (funny note, the title of the PDF is Draft 1999 Sporting Regulations. Could do with an update) and I'm not seeing anything about switching the engine off, or not being allowed to drive off the weighbridge in these, as I said.

Probably get pinged for hitting the cone and being disrespectful to stewards. That's pretty normal in most sports.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The reason they stopped that is because the teams would adjust the car for the final run and have it weighed as legal. The obvious example is "water cooled brakes" where the teams ran illegally underweight and topped up the water towards the end of the race to be legal. I recall, but can't find a link about it, a team which did the same in qualifying and for the final run would add a set of tyres that had water in it to meet the minimum. Madness.

I remember teams in the early '80s using "water cooled breaks", notably Brabham and Williams. Tyrrell went one further in 1984, by adding lead shot to the water tank.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Rule 29.1 is in regards to drivers skipping the weighing procedure and driving past through to the team's garage. It states that if you miss the FIA garage you will be instructed to go back to the FIA garage. Vettel absolutely did not miss the garage and did not violate 29.1.

I'm reading the same regulations as you (funny note, the title of the PDF is Draft 1999 Sporting Regulations. Could do with an update) and I'm not seeing anything about switching the engine off, or not being allowed to drive off the weighbridge in these, as I said.

Probably get pinged for hitting the cone and being disrespectful to stewards. That's pretty normal in most sports.

After any free practice session or during the qualifying practice session cars will be weighed as follows :
i) When signalled to do so the driver will proceed directly to the FIA garage and stop his engine.
A reprimand will be imposed on any driver who fails to stop when signalled to do so.....

Not sure what part isn’t breaking 29.1....he failed to stop his engine when signalled to do so, and also drove at an FIA steward

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

After any free practice session or during the qualifying practice session cars will be weighed as follows :
i) When signalled to do so the driver will proceed directly to the FIA garage and stop his engine.
A reprimand will be imposed on any driver who fails to stop when signalled to do so.....

Not sure what part isn’t breaking 29.1....he failed to stop his engine when signalled to do so, and also drove at an FIA steward

Good call on the engine, my bad.

However, the second part does not apply. You cannot apply rules using sentences that are cut off. The full statement is

A reprimand will be impose on any driver who fails to stop when signalled to do so, provided the car is then brought back to the FIA garage without delay and that the FIA technical delegate is satisfied the car has been brought back in exactly the same condition it was in when it was driven into the pits.

This is about missing the box, which he certainly did not do - so that doesn't apply here. Also, the regulation states if the car is brought back in the exact same condition (which it was because it never missed it), then it's a reprimand only.

Also, did we all know there was a maximum and minimum height for trophies? I've never been that far down in the rules - it almost reads like a parody!

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Lets wait on how pedantic the stewards are going to be about it, because the ultimate in pedantisms would be to suggest that 4 weighing pads, surrounded by cones doesn't actually constitute the FIA garage and so could be argued that the engine doesn't specifically need to be switched off.

The wording should be designated weighing area rather than garage.

[ascarracinguk]

Haha yup. It’s an interesting read though. No doubt they will decide soon enough

[mark_l]

While we are all reading the FIA regulations, why isn't Lewis penalised under International Sporting Code Appendix L chapter 3 section 5.

5. Wearing of jewellery
The wearing of jewellery in the form of body piercing or metal neck
chains is prohibited during the competition and may therefore be
checked before the start.

LH was clearly wearing an ear ring when removing his helmet in parc ferme at the end of qualifying.

[ascarracinguk]

Damn, disqualify him from the championship

[gert]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The reason they stopped that is because the teams would adjust the car for the final run and have it weighed as legal. The obvious example is "water cooled brakes" where the teams ran illegally underweight and topped up the water towards the end of the race to be legal. I recall, but can't find a link about it, a team which did the same in qualifying and for the final run would add a set of tyres that had water in it to meet the minimum. Madness.

OK, I understand why they do it, but I guess there can be a better solution than "randomly" picking a guy at a "random" moment ? I a dry-wet session this could massively disadvantage the chosen driver.

[gert]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Here's the onboard, so people can make sure they've seen it before commenting: https://streamable.com/h8fo3

As it shows, Vettel is in a hurry but he explicitly follows the instructions of the guy when he waves him off, the guy even gives him an extra push.

Thanks for that. Since he has red tires, that means it must be after his aborted first attempt (outlap only), or right at the end of the Q2 session?
He did his timed lap on the yellow tires.

The instructions from the guy with the white shirt are a bit stupid. He is waving Vettel forward while the other guy is still taking away the cone.
Also, he does mention Vettel to advance or drive away.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by gert

OK, I understand why they do it, but I guess there can be a better solution than "randomly" picking a guy at a "random" moment ? I a dry-wet session this could massively disadvantage the chosen driver.

Same rules for everyone and has been for decades, just this time it cost ferrari because of the strategy they were running. Daft thing is they didn’t need to pit and switch tyres, it was their choice and Vettels choice to be so agitated...he still had time left to complete his laps

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by gert

Thanks for that. Since he has red tires, that means it must be after his aborted first attempt (outlap only), or right at the end of the Q2 session?
He did his timed lap on the yellow tires.

The instructions from the guy with the white shirt are a bit stupid. He is waving Vettel forward while the other guy is still taking away the cone.
Also, he does mention Vettel to advance or drive away.

He also tells Vettel to cut his engine, which he doesn’t. It’s for this that Vettel is being investigated

[gert]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Same rules for everyone and has been for decades, just this time it cost ferrari because of the strategy they were running. Daft thing is they didn’t need to pit and switch tyres, it was their choice and Vettels choice to be so agitated...he still had time left to complete his laps

For me this is not about Ferrari or Vettel. The rules are the same for everyone, but don't get applied to everyone. I think a better arrangement can be found where noone in put in a disadvantage.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by gert

For me this is not about Ferrari or Vettel. The rules are the same for everyone, but don't get applied to everyone. I think a better arrangement can be found where noone in put in a disadvantage.

But they do get applied to everyone, it’s a random process, at some point you will get pinged into the weigh bridge. What solution would you suggest? Where is the deterrent if it’s not random?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by gert

Thanks for that. Since he has red tires, that means it must be after his aborted first attempt (outlap only), or right at the end of the Q2 session?
He did his timed lap on the yellow tires.

The instructions from the guy with the white shirt are a bit stupid. He is waving Vettel forward while the other guy is still taking away the cone.
Also, he does mention Vettel to advance or drive away.

Exactly, these guys seem completely clueless about what to do and yet Vettel simply follows their instructions. Ferrari are claiming Vettel did turn off his engine on the bridge, so let's see if that's true. If it is, there is no reason to penalize him for anything.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Exactly, these guys seem completely clueless about what to do and yet Vettel simply follows their instructions. Ferrari are claiming Vettel did turn off his engine on the bridge, so let's see if that's true. If it is, there is no reason to penalize him for anything.

What about driving directly at an FIA stewards ankles? Nothing wrong with that then?

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

What about driving directly at an FIA stewards ankles? Nothing wrong with that then?

Vettel was only following the FIA officials direction, the official moved to the left so VET drove to the left.

[gert]

Does anybody know how the drivers for the weigh bridge are selected?

Who makes that choice? The official at the weigh bridge?

How and when do they pick a driver/car?
Do they pick one/two/a few before the session starts, and make them stop when they enter the pitlane?
(i.e. Hartley, Vettel, Ericsson)
Or do they agree to stop the 2nd, the 11th and the 36th car that enter the pitlane?
Or do they just stop someone when they feel like it?


I honestly have no clue ...

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by mark_l

Vettel was only following the FIA officials direction, the official moved to the left so VET drove to the left.

Vettel drove directly at the guy moving the cone out of the way which he petulantly moved with his car....doesn’t matter if he was beckoned in, if there’s a guy stood directly in front of you, you don’t drive at him.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by gert

Does anybody know how the drivers for the weigh bridge are selected?

Who makes that choice? The official at the weigh bridge?

How and when do they pick a driver/car?
Do they pick one/two/a few before the session starts, and make them stop when they enter the pitlane?
(i.e. Hartley, Vettel, Ericsson)
Or do they agree to stop the 2nd, the 11th and the 36th car that enter the pitlane?
Or do they just stop someone when they feel like it?


I honestly have no clue ...

All I know is it’s random, but it’s a good question Gert. Don’t know if it’s numbers in a hat, random number generator or some tinfoil hattery selecting drivers on purpose to disadvantage them