How much to spend on a classic car restoration?

[JHamilton]

Thanks for the info! I look forward to seeing your progress! I'm jealous because I'd love to have a project or something to tinker on. My toys are modern and very expensive and difficult to work on. Probably not as rewarding either.

Originally Posted by dtype38

You may be thinking of the earlier Jaguar XK sports cars which usually sported bonnet straps when racing. Like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:19...r_XK120_34.jpg

That is stunning, but I have seen pictures of Mk2 with a strap on either side of the grille. Must not be that popular though because I can't find a photo now.

Originally Posted by dtype38

The "triple" carb set were only used on the E-type or the later Mk 10 saloon (usually written Mk X) so anyone who knew what they were looking at would instantly know it was non-standard. Beauty is obviously in the eye of the beholder, so an "enhancement" for some is "buggered about with" to others. Generally though, originality will get the better price amongst collectors. Hence my comment about the gear box. Similarly with the size of the carbs, the smaller ones are correct for the car, and the correct air inlet duct and manifold will only fit the smaller carbs. Again, originality is usually the most desirable. As for performance, well.... all I can say is : Live axle + leaf springs + 2 tons means you really, really wouldn't want to try driving one of these quickly unless you were a very experienced, skilled and confident driver... and even then it's quite an "experience". So unless you're going to put it on a race track, then the twin smaller carbs is quite sufficient!

Make car... have... less power? Does not compute.

[terence]

Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4

Lovely Jag above....

To anyone who has paid a resto shop to tiddle up a vehicle...

Did you ask for and receive regular itemised accounts and detailed descriptions of what work was carried out?? (including cost of components, materials etc purchased) and is it considered reasonable to ask for and expect same???

Why should it not be reasonable? I was managing a leading resto shop for a number of years in the uk.All of our customers with long term restos were offered the choice of monthly payments etc.They all had itemised invoices accompanied with photographic records.One such customer was given a portrait of him standing next to his freshly restored 250 GTO.

[dtype38]

May one ask how much one would have to be spending to receive a free portrait on completion? I only ask because it reminded me of a programme I watched on Las Vegas Casinos where some customers were treated to free hotel suites and meals while they were there. When asked how much such a customer would have to "spend" in their casino to receive such things free gratis, the answer was... for a weekend: six figures for room and board, seven for a suite and your own chef!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Why should it not be reasonable? I was managing a leading resto shop for a number of years in the uk.All of our customers with long term restos were offered the choice of monthly payments etc.They all had itemised invoices accompanied with photographic records.One such customer was given a portrait of him standing next to his freshly restored 250 GTO.

Thanks...for confirming what should be common business practice (but sometimes, its NOT! )

[Middle_BBG]

We also received regular updates including photographs, itemised billing and optional alteration or improvements. It ended up costing far more than I hoped, but the cost was worth it, not least for the look on my wife's face when she got the B back.

[dtype38]

It's like like this discussion never stopped, just accidentally dropped a digit in the date somewhere! As it happens, there have also been some surprising developments in this project to report.

The original reason for trying to sell the car was that, having retired from racing, I wanted the money convert my racing D-type replica into a road car. But then... one sunny day... a man knocked on the door and asked how much I wanted for the D-type. I said a big number, he agreed and turned up the next day with a trailer and two large envelopes of folding stuff. After several days in shock my thoughts turned to the Mk2 and my newly lubricated bank balance. A change in plan emerged. So now the Mk2 is a keeper... and even though I won't get my money back, I'm going to restore it properly just for the fun of it.

Current state of play is that I've got it totally stripped to a bare shell. Initial impressions are that it has had a heavy impact to the front left corner which has been poorly repaired, but nothing with can't be put right, and the rest of it is basically sound. Next step is to to take if for acid stripping to see what's actual steel and what's not!

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by dtype38

Next step is to to take if for acid stripping to see what's actual steel and what's not!

We had an MGB shell dipped that came back like a sieve and had to replace almost every panel !

[davyboy]

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks for starting it dType38 !

It's also worth bearing in mind that appreciation over time can claw back a lot of the investment sunk into a good restoration. This will be amplified further if the car is a rare/valuable entity to start with. If you've had your D Type a while, you'll know how much it has increased in value.

[Middle_BBG]

Our B wasn't quite a sieve - the roof was OK ! At least having it stripped back to the metal revealed a myriad of paint schemes which meant that she who can never make her mind up could decide which colour looked good.

Now, all I need is a new gearbox.......

[GORDON STREETER]

We had to start on the bottom and work up !

[simon drabble]

Good luck Dtype. I am coming to the end of a 4 year restoration/build of a Mk2 race car and whilst it probably makes no commercial sense given the cost it will give me many years of fun so cost is not so relevant.
I hope you enjoy the project

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

We had an MGB shell dipped that came back like a sieve and had to replace almost every panel !

I have heard of two problems with acid dipping:

One is if your dipper does not know or care how to flush every last remnant of acid out that can lead to later problems

Two is that cars from snowy areas where salt is used on the roads give less than satisfactory results because the metal becomes impregnated.

Nothing up my sleeve but my arm as far as proof of either

[dtype38]

I hear you, but my chosen company for the work is Surface Processing Limited in Dudley. I've heard good things about them and although expensive, seem to be the acid dipper of choice of the professional restorers.

By expensive, I'm looking at around £800 +vat for the initial dip/strip. Then I'll repair the holes, and replace panels as necessary and fix the bent front corner and return it for a clean up and their electrophoretic plating process to fully protect it. The latter comes in at something like £1200 +vat

Seems like a lot of money as it still then needs painting, but I received some advice recently from a professional restorer friend which made sense. He said that if I was keeping the car (which I am) then to spend whatever it cost to get the body as perfect as possible, even if it meant I couldn't afford to do other stuff at the moment. His reasoning was that 'bolt on' stuff like wire wheels, seat recovering, carpets, even the engine, can all be revisited later as and when funds become available... but that the body can't be revisited without starting from scratch again.

So here is the body... starting from scratch:

[Middle_BBG]

A sensible approach. Knowing that the body is straight at least gives you a reliable starting point. Good luck with the rebuild and I shall look forward to following it's progress.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Seems like a lot of money as it still then needs painting, but I received some advice recently from a professional restorer friend which made sense. He said that if I was keeping the car (which I am) then to spend whatever it cost to get the body as perfect as possible, even if it meant I couldn't afford to do other stuff at the moment. His reasoning was that 'bolt on' stuff like wire wheels, seat recovering, carpets, even the engine, can all be revisited later as and when funds become available... but that the body can't be revisited without starting from scratch again.

Sound advice.

Having restored, owned and partially re-fettled a number of MK IIs and a MK I over the years, whilst it is possible to remove and replace the usual rust problems (viz: front cross member; jacking points; sills; rear spring hangers; door skins etc) the old enemy will always re-emerge from the depths and ruin a good paint finish, eventually.

An old chum who worked with me for a short time, retired sort of early and set up a specialised Jaguar restoration biz: mainly MK IIs but also E Types and the odd XK: after a short while, owing to the cost of restoring UK cars riddled with salt corrosion he found it far cheaper to import the cars from South Africa and California; and go from there.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by dtype38

I hear you, but my chosen company for the work is Surface Processing Limited in Dudley. I've heard good things about them and although expensive, seem to be the acid dipper of choice of the professional restorers.

By expensive, I'm looking at around £800 +vat for the initial dip/strip. Then I'll repair the holes, and replace panels as necessary and fix the bent front corner and return it for a clean up and their electrophoretic plating process to fully protect it. The latter comes in at something like £1200 +vat

One thing you may want to consider and this is from someone else's experience, is to either get it electroplated immediately after the first dip (means you need two electroplatings) or make sure you collect it in an enclosed trailer as near as possible after it's dipped as it'll start rusting the moment It's been cleaned off plus you may find they leave it outside until you collect it.
Just saying.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

as it'll start rusting the moment It's been cleaned off plus you may find they leave it outside until you collect it.
Just saying.

All mild steel starts rusting as soon as it's cleaned, Tim.

However, if the shell has not been on the road, then hopefully, no salt electrolysis effect. Additionally, of course, with no battery connected, then the primary problem - Positive Earth Supply Circuit* - will not be a causal factor. Furthermore, the enclosed structures (sills, chassis legs et al) will not have suffered by road spray thrown up.

Part and parcel of refinishing bare metal is to scurf off surface rust prior to the first coat of primer.

We used to use an ICI pre-paint product; can't remember its name. Just a wipe over and then a degrease prior to the first coat of bare metal primer (Red Oxide-Zinc Chromate).

(*N.B. Earth was changed, generally, from Positive to Negative circa 1968. Hopefully, the vehicle is a genuine Jaguar product and not one of the later post-BMC lash ups!)

[dtype38]

Indeed I've considered the 'rusting immediately after cleaning' issue. I was hoping to borrow your trailer Tim to take it up there, but seriously thinking of hiring a covered trailer to collect it. One of my questions to them is if I can arrange to collect it direct from treatment without it going outside (given the time of year). That said, they cover this issue on their website and say that if it's returned for electro coating it will be given a brief acid "clean up" then rinse to rid it of any surface rust before treatment.

As for the earthing, this car was built positive earth but converted by the previous owner in the last 10 years... still running a dynamo though rather than an alternator conversion.

And speaking of conversions, I made the required donation to the Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust to get certified confirmation of its original build specification. Turns out it's definitely what it claims to be (3.8 ltr, rhd, gunmetal paint with red interior) except that it was originally an automatic rather than manual. Guess that explains why the the hole for the gear stick looks like it's been hacksawed out of the tunnel!

Don't suppose anyone's got a Borg Warner DG 250 gearbox lying around unwanted?

[SidewaysFeltham]

Any electroplating demands "Pickling" before the plating process can begin. Usually Muratic Acid (Hydrochloric), to remove surface corrosion.

Can the treatment facility not offer shrink wrapping in plastic?

Otherwise, simply cocoon the shell in builder's quality polythene sheeting before starting the journey.



Personally, I wouldn't consider the electro-treatment before you sort out the body: any such material would create included slag problems when subsequently you start welding. Also remember, Jag joints are solder loaded: essential if you want the correct finish and durability. To properly tin the base metal then you would have to remove the electro treatment.

Which leads on to another interesting point: what would happen in the various dips, to the lead, if you elected to complete all necessary panel work and then have the electro process completed?

Might be worth checking with the contractors....

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

Which leads on to another interesting point: what would happen in the various dips, to the lead, if you elected to complete all necessary panel work and then have the electro process completed

Good point, as I believe the lead will also be removed in the main aggressive stripping process. I assume they have some knowledge of this when it comes to the electro plating, so will add that to my list of questions before I send it off.

[Peter Mallett]

The same dippers did my Rover

We did the known structural work first then had it dipped and primed before going back for final filling and spraying.

[dtype38]

Ohhh, I do hope mine turns out that well :-)

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

(*N.B. Earth was changed, generally, from Positive to Negative circa 1968. Hopefully, the vehicle is a genuine Jaguar product and not one of the later post-BMC lash ups!)

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, positive or negative, earth is a must

[Tim Falce]

Hi John and welcome to tentenths, last time I spoke to him, dtype38 had decided to keep the car and do a full restoration. It was in his garage after being acid dipped but he's gone very quite lately so I don't know if a start has been made on it yet.

[djinvicta]

Probably still sniffing the acid....