Cars that were too clever for their own good.... - Page 2

Mike Bell · 21 Jan 2018, 06:42 (Ref:3794089)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

How about the Chevy SS, or Holden in Australia.

The car was delivered to the U.S. so loaded down in unwanted gadgetry like "skip shift" etc. etc. that it cost $55 000 rather than $30 000 dollars and sank like a stone in the U.S. market for this and a number of other reasons. Trying to out BMW BMW.

Piece by Doug DeMuro here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfJjH4oZDTA

Skip to 17:00 mins.

That must be our Vauxhall (GM) VXR8 http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/microapps/...8/gallery.html which has the supercharged 600bhp engine. It's imported in very small numbers by the manufacturer, as the previous models have been. (We got the Maloo as well

) Journalists praise it for simplicity and 'old skool' take on performance, like an M5 or AMG without the fancy stuff, so all they import sell. With the end of Holden production in the home country, presumably last of the line.... RIP !

Mike Bell · 21 Jan 2018, 07:13 (Ref:3794090)

Grant, there is a specific thread discussing over-complication, here- http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151558

Regarding the first Maybach, surely a poorly styled attempt at a Mercedes ‘Rolls Royce’, and deservedly a failure for that one simple reason! Fisker are still in business and getting seriously into BEVs......

grantp · 21 Jan 2018, 15:40 (Ref:3794133)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Grant, there is a specific thread discussing over-complication, here- http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151558

Regarding the first Maybach, surely a poorly styled attempt at a Mercedes ‘Rolls Royce’, and deservedly a failure for that one simple reason! Fisker are still in business and getting seriously into BEVs......

I thought Fisker had gone out of business at least once since they first released something with wheels on tarmac under that name.

Wiki seems to support that understanding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Automotive

Akrapovic · 21 Jan 2018, 15:55 (Ref:3794134)

Fisker Automotive became Fisker Inc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Inc.

Mike Bell · 21 Jan 2018, 15:57 (Ref:3794135)

Quote:

Originally Posted by grantp

I thought Fisker had gone out of business at least once since they first released something with wheels on tarmac under that name.

Wiki seems to support that understanding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Automotive

I think you’ll find there’s a new Fisker company risen from the ashes..... https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...e-nine-minutes

grantp · 21 Jan 2018, 16:09 (Ref:3794136)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Grant, there is a specific thread discussing over-complication, here- http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151558

Ah, so there is. Thanks for the link.

Seems a bit comatose though.

Should we wake it up?

**Adam43** · 21 Jan 2018, 20:23 (Ref:3794151)

I’ll take something there...

Mike Bell · 24 Jan 2018, 18:50 (Ref:3794793)

Something more modern and smaller, but which (from sales figures and time on sale) proved to be too clever for the buying public- the Toyota iQ, along with it’s vastly more expensive spin off, the Aston Martin Cygnet! I remember Clarkson on Top Gear renaming the Toyota the ‘Zanussi’, due to its white-goods like proportions.......

There was a clever reason for Aston wanting to sell their version- it’s low emissions would help them achieve a lower average for their range. However, as you can read from the following, not exactly a big seller, but ironically sought after now. Mostly by AM collectors.....

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/aston-m...n-cygnet-story

Lancsbreaker · 24 Jan 2018, 20:15 (Ref:3794812)

Does the Renault Evantime qualify? Certainly had a very limited lifespan......

grantp · 24 Jan 2018, 20:22 (Ref:3794815)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Something more modern and smaller, but which (from sales figures and time on sale) proved to be too clever for the buying public- the Toyota iQ, along with it’s vastly more expensive spin off, the Aston Martin Cygnet! I remember Clarkson on Top Gear renaming the Toyota the ‘Zanussi’, due to its white-goods like proportions.......

There was a clever reason for Aston wanting to sell their version- it’s low emissions would help them achieve a lower average for their range. However, as you can read from the following, not exactly a big seller, but ironically sought after now. Mostly by AM collectors.....

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/aston-m...n-cygnet-story

They sold 141 in the UK?

Really?

Back in the year of launch I think I saw one on the road and two outside an AM dealership.

Then nothing until last year when I was following one out of Henley but too far back to catch up and et a closer look before it turned off.

Too clever?

On the basis that they didn't sell many into a target market that is somewhat prone to buying trinkets.... possibly not?

150 hours build time maybe reflects some re-manufacturing effort rather than comparable build time alone for a new DB9?

grantp · 24 Jan 2018, 20:44 (Ref:3794821)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Does the Renault Evantime qualify? Certainly had a very limited lifespan......

The Avantime must qualify for something - only 8,500 built.

Renault were making some strange things back then, The Vel Satis was quite odd too but sold more.

Their styling was definitely on the unusual side of interesting.

Mike Bell · 24 Jan 2018, 21:23 (Ref:3794825)

Quote:

Originally Posted by grantp

(AM Cygnet)- Too clever? On the basis that they didn't sell many into a target market that is somewhat prone to buying trinkets.... possibly not?

You’re looking at the Cygnet in isolation, but I was looking at it as really just a (very) highly specified Toyota so therefore suffering the same odd proportions, strange seating layout (for 3.5 peeps) and tiny luggage capacity. BTW apparently the iQ has an airbag behind the rear seats as the heads of any passenger(s) in the back are so close....

Avantime? The answer to a question nobody asked, IMO!

Mike Bell · 30 Jan 2018, 08:31 (Ref:3796793)

Here’s another small car that failed to capture the European public’s imagination- the Peugeot 1007. This review is spot on so no excuses for the link.... https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbyca...eot/1007-2005/

Anecodatal evidence suggests that the electric sliding doors were so slow, if it was raining you got soaked getting in or out! Peugeot also had to educate us that the car was not a ‘one-0-0-7’, as that upset the James Bond franchise people. I think it was sold as the ‘ten-0-7’ to avoid conflict.......

Anyway, it tried to be clever and failed. Now if you see one it will likely be being driven by someone of the same demographic as a Toyota Yaris Verso, although despite it’s looks, that is a far more usable car.

johnh875 · 14 Mar 2018, 01:24 (Ref:3807843)

The original Mercedes-Benz A-class would have to qualify with the sandwich floor concept, too bad about the moose test. Quite a contrast from the current car where M-B have joined many other manufacturers in dropping off a Golf as the design breif.

Mike Bell · 14 Mar 2018, 07:37 (Ref:3807865)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnh875

The original Mercedes-Benz A-class would have to qualify with the sandwich floor concept, too bad about the moose test. Quite a contrast from the current car where M-B have joined many other manufacturers in dropping off a Golf as the design breif.

Glad someone bought that up! 1997 when it happened, so some may be too young even to know about it! Google ‘Mercedes A class Elk (or Moose) test’ for loads of good pics....

The packaging of the original A class was superb, although it did place the driver rather far forward in the car. It’s sandwich floor was very clever, and despite the test roll over debacle the model sold very well. I believe the Audi A2 was their response to the Merc, but although more advanced in some ways (and better handling!) the Audi was not so accommodating for passengers or their luggage.

Apparently the double floor was abandoned for the 3rd gen due to marketing pressures. Merc wanted the car to appeal to younger buyers, and the earlier cars had to be tall due to said floor design. Great for the older generation, but hardly sporty...... As you say, the current and recently announced next gen A class are just Golf clones, some models with wheezy Renault engines to boot......

johnh875 · 19 Mar 2018, 03:36 (Ref:3809025)

I imagine the A2 was a response but Audi definitely went their own way. I'm not sure why but I couldn't find the original moose test footage, but there was the ADAC/M-B re-test with a hilariously 'tame' ADAC tester.

The only A-class I've driven was an A45 - definitely not wheezy!

Mike Bell · 19 Mar 2018, 09:01 (Ref:3809052)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnh875

I imagine the A2 was a response but Audi definitely went their own way. I'm not sure why but I couldn't find the original moose test footage, but there was the ADAC/M-B re-test with a hilariously 'tame' ADAC tester.

The only A-class I've driven was an A45 - definitely not wheezy!

I've only seen stills of the car tipping over in the original test. The A45 motor is not a Renault lump, as far as I know! I think it's mainly the diesels.....

The A Class wasn't the only German car to have initial stability problems in the last couple of decades. The first Audi TTs supplied in Europe were all recalled (to Germany) as the shape allowed the rear to lift at speed. Combined with aggressive suspension settings to reduce understeer, it resulted in drivers losing the back end if lifting off at high speed on a bend. Hence the retro fitted rear spoiler, suspension changes and tweaked electronic stability settings... Road testers in the UK reckoned the 'before' TT was a much better drivers car, but Audi obviously decided it was a little too nervous for general use!

From memory the Smart 4/2 also achieved some initial notoriety due to the handling on snow or ice. Remember seeing pictures of them upside down on Autobahns! Not sure if it was ever sorted, as the very short wheelbase and rear weight bias were the main problems....

Casper · 19 Mar 2018, 10:15 (Ref:3809063)

Bristol 401, first production saloon to reach 100mph...maybe, I don't know about that but it was one of the first to have serious wind tunnel R&D done.

https://www.hagertyinsurance.co.uk/p...50-Bristol-401

morninggents · 19 Mar 2018, 11:40 (Ref:3809076)

Daf 33? Quite good to drive but never really caught on.

Seamless acceleration (just like the i3) but drivers in those days were waiting for the automatic 'change' and revs dip.

Dave Brand · 19 Mar 2018, 12:32 (Ref:3809087)

Quote:

Originally Posted by morninggents

Daf 33? Quite good to drive but never really caught on.

Seamless acceleration (just like the i3) but drivers in those days were waiting for the automatic 'change' and revs dip.

I once drove a DAF! I needed a pool car for a business trip, but all the pool cars (mainly A60s, plus the odd Ford) were out, so I had to borrow a car from the test fleet, which had some very interesting cars, from an E-type down. . . I was given the Daffodil!

Seamless acceleration? Acceleration wasn't really part of its repertoire! Pressing hard on the accelerator produced an increase in noise from under the bonnet & an almost imperceptible increase in speed. Pulling out from a t-junction, even in a 30 limit, was something of an adventure.

To optimum engine braking you pulled out a knob on the dash - that raised the noise level to a cacophony.

Ah, the Daffodil; the only car I've ever driven that had me yearning for an A60!

morninggents · 19 Mar 2018, 14:07 (Ref:3809098)

Hmm. The model I was thinking about and drove a couple of times in the late 60s was not called the Daffodil and seemed to have adequate power. Must have been a Daff 44 or Daff 55.

GregUK · 19 Mar 2018, 14:16 (Ref:3809102)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I once drove a DAF! I needed a pool car for a business trip, but all the pool cars (mainly A60s, plus the odd Ford) were out, so I had to borrow a car from the test fleet, which had some very interesting cars, from an E-type down. . . I was given the Daffodil!

Seamless acceleration? Acceleration wasn't really part of its repertoire! Pressing hard on the accelerator produced an increase in noise from under the bonnet & an almost imperceptible increase in speed. Pulling out from a t-junction, even in a 30 limit, was something of an adventure.

To optimum engine braking you pulled out a knob on the dash - that raised the noise level to a cacophony.

Ah, the Daffodil; the only car I've ever driven that had me yearning for an A60!

IIRC the Daf Variomatic rubber band transmission was used on an F3 car in period.

E.B · 19 Mar 2018, 14:47 (Ref:3809111)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregUK

IIRC the Daf Variomatic rubber band transmission was used on an F3 car in period.

You recall correctly... A Tecno 1000cc F3 car.
It was also used in a Huron 4A BDA Sports Car....

VIVA GT · 19 Mar 2018, 15:02 (Ref:3809116)

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B

You recall correctly... A Tecno 1000cc F3 car.
It was also used in a Huron 4A BDA Sports Car....

It was also used in the 4 wheel drive, BDA powered Daf rallycross car driven by the Dutch deRouy (sp?) brothers.
If I remember the car was tested by CCC Magazine with the feature being wittily entitled Two diffs from Amsterdam!

Tel 911S · 19 Mar 2018, 15:23 (Ref:3809120)

Ford also tested a Variomatic transmission on a Fiesta in the late 90s/00s .

It never went into production as [ I was told ] , there was a " Scratching " noise from the belts which they could never cure .

But it was a "fun " car to drive as it could win most "Traffic Light GPs " , if you like that sort of thing .

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