Return of the V12

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

IMHO it was a combination of Achates Power (who have a horizontally opposed two stroke engine with novel solutions to address the negatives of two stroke including a diesel like ignition) in which their sales/marketing team is casting a wide net for a customer for their solution PLUS a slow news day in the motorsports world. They are currently focused on US DOD contracts and also a partnership with Ricardo (probably for things like truck engines, etc.). I am extremely doubtful any of this will show up in a serious way in motorsports. Especially not in a V12 F1 engine!

Their YouTube channel shows how it works as well as their focus. Actually not much in the way of recent news with them.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfi...oXCCMB6TyXopYg

Here is the TT thread on the topic.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154889

Richard

Electric trucks will leap frog any new IC/diesel advances, the transport industry is literally salivating over the idea. Way way lower maintenance issues (I was a fleet manager for a few years) far lower trip times, less driver fatigue etc. Modern trucks are very quite internally but on long haul the silence of the electric truck will be a boon for drivers. We had trips where the truck did five days non stop except for refuelling and meal breaks with the second driver in the sleeper over the motor trying to sleep and that is never nice. I predict on major highways that overhead catenary charging will top up the batteries on the roll so the recharging problem goes away.

[S griffin]

What happens with trucks is irrelevant, it's fine for them, so I don't thing F1 really concerns itself with those vehicles there. I think the electric push is good in some areas, but not necessarily everywhere. Not knocking it, just think we shouldn't be comparing what happens in one area of transport with the whole of motorsport. Anyway technology on motor vehicles has been helped by F1 in some areas, but not all of them. I am sure all the electric motors have done just fine by themselves without needing any F1 technology, as they don't run on electrics and it's worked well for trucks, so that's all there is to it

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Anyway technology on motor vehicles has been helped by F1 in some areas, but not all of them.

Please list the break throughs in F1 hybrid technology have reached the production line. I was responding to Richard in my post but Mea Culpa and all that for the reply that was not needed from your good self.

[chillibowl]

In fairness most of the tech has crossed over already.

Granted the tech is not in your average family minivan, neither are v12s mind you, but Merc built around 300 Project One hypercars and sold each one of them for 3mil.

Between the cars themselves, service plans, plus who knows how many other Mercs one had to buy just for the privilege to buy a Project One, Merc made close to 1 billion dollars. Probably more even.

I would think it is fair to say that they successfully monitized their F1 engine program.

i suspect Ferrari will eventually do the same.

[Adam43]

Have they actually built them?

And to think they only made 106 (V12) McLaren F1s.

[chillibowl]

Apparently all sold. Delivery for next year but i don't know if covid changed that.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Have they actually built them?

And to think they only made 106 (V12) McLaren F1s.

Scheduled for delivery in 2021?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Casper

Electric trucks will leap frog any new IC/diesel advances, the transport industry is literally salivating over the idea. Way way lower maintenance issues (I was a fleet manager for a few years) far lower trip times, less driver fatigue etc. Modern trucks are very quite internally but on long haul the silence of the electric truck will be a boon for drivers. We had trips where the truck did five days non stop except for refuelling and meal breaks with the second driver in the sleeper over the motor trying to sleep and that is never nice. I predict on major highways that overhead catenary charging will top up the batteries on the roll so the recharging problem goes away.

Sorry, didn't respond as I really didn't have anything to add. I mostly mentioned trucks above just because that seems to be where that company that is pushing their two stroke diesel is focused and it is not motorsports. Even then, it seems most of their "recent" stuff is from a few years a go. So they don't seem to be getting traction. I am personally curious to see how things go for long haul electric trucks (that concept does seem to have traction) and also think they may also be a target for automated driving systems? But that is a bit off topic.

Richard

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Sorry, didn't respond as I really didn't have anything to add. I mostly mentioned trucks above just because that seems to be where that company that is pushing their two stroke diesel is focused and it is not motorsports. Even then, it seems most of their "recent" stuff is from a few years a go. So they don't seem to be getting traction. I am personally curious to see how things go for long haul electric trucks (that concept does seem to have traction) and also think they may also be a target for automated driving systems? But that is a bit off topic.

Richard

Long haul trucking automated and mostly at night. Would free up a lot of daytime motorway capacity...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Long haul trucking automated and mostly at night. Would free up a lot of daytime motorway capacity...

They're called trains on a railway network.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

Long haul trucking automated and mostly at night. Would free up a lot of daytime motorway capacity...

Great, but the guys on the end of the local delivery don't like you deciding it's all overnight work. Overnight is HARD to staff, hard to maintain employees and costs much more. The motorway traffic you see is mostly much shorter drive distancing than you think and is meant to deliver the product on the truck to an operation mostly open during the day. So the truck is still going to be on the road during the days. Or it is very specialized movement, rail is much cleaner and with modular truck and trailers cheaper than a guy and truck for thousands of miles. Rail to ship, truck to deliver.

[Taxi645]

Interesting topic. Do you guys want me to open a seperate thread on it here?: https://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=50

[Taxi645]

Anyway, back to the topic.


I just think it would be a pity for F1 to be dragged down by car manufacturers who are desperately clinging on to a world that won't exist any more in a few years time (I'm talking about mid to high-end ICE cars). Hybrid might sound very modern, but in fact the desire to hold on to it is born from an overly conservative business approach and their inability to change quickly enough.


It would be more forward thinking to acknowledge this and choose an engine formula based on more sensible criteria.

[Taxi645]

https://www.racefans.net/2020/11/12/...o-carbon-goal/



"The championship expects internal combustion engines will be part of a net-zero carbon future. “We believe that with over 1 billion of the 1.1 billion vehicles in the world powered by internal combustion engines, we have the potential to lead the way in technologies that reduce automotive carbon emissions globally.
“We also believe that there is not a single solution to the engine technologies of the future but that a sustainably fuel hybrid engine will be a significant moment for the sport and the automotive sector.”

What rubbish. Scrap all combustion engines together you can find in each corner of the world (including the billions of mopeds in Asia and other places) and put them on one pile and use that as an argument for the current hybrid engines. As if any of those mopeds will ever use any F1 hybrid tech.


If they would split up the argument and use it to argue solely in favour for synthetic fuel than it would make sense, but to use it as an argument to maintain hybrid tech is non-sense and frankly just disingenuous.


I suppose letting go of the current hybrid formula would signal that we're facing the end of the current combustion technology in the non-budget automotive world and acknowledging that fact now by getting rid off hybrid engines for 2023 would not suit the agenda of the automotive manufacturers.

[Casper]

Using potential food supply stock to produce synthetic fuels is not likely to go down well.

[greentrumpet]

AIUI synthetic fuel is not biofuel, it does not rely on using foodstuffs but on removing and storing CO2 from the air and combining it with hydrogen from renewable energy sourced from solar, wind etc. As such it could be the holy grail for petrolheads.

[Taxi645]

https://translate.google.com/transla...orenreglement/


I so hope the FIA and Liberty won't be fooled by the current manufacturers. Just 2023 synthetic fuel and a simple light engine. This would solve so many fundamental problems for F1 now and in the future. Just not for the peeps currently using the current engine regulation to control success and customer teams.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by greentrumpet

AIUI synthetic fuel is not biofuel, it does not rely on using foodstuffs but on removing and storing CO2 from the air and combining it with hydrogen from renewable energy sourced from solar, wind etc. As such it could be the holy grail for petrolheads.

And the Hydrogen comes from where......oil of course as any other method for the mass use of it is simply not realistic.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

https://translate.google.com/transla...orenreglement/

That is just a wish list without any substance to it at all. I like how journos editorialise on this aspect of F1 without putting forward realistic views or even any views on how it might be accomplished with emission reduction in line with the public expectation. I think they are in the same place I am, no idea at all beyond going electric as anything else is a band aid solution that has a very short life. There is no manufacturer even talking of bio fuels for road cars as far as I am aware, certainly not the major ones.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Casper

And the Hydrogen comes from where......oil of course as any other method for the mass use of it is simply not realistic.

Says who?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Says who?

https://4thgeneration.energy/life-cy...s-of-hydrogen/

It's not strictly true saying "oil", as it's hydrocarbons, and you can get natural gas/methane and coal without oil. Around 95% of the worlds hydrogen is produced using hydrocarbons.

However, it's not that simple. Hydrogen production from hydrocarbons is non-polluting (you don't burn anything to get the hydrogen). But it does have a carbon footprint larger than you'd expect, and a CO2 contributor.

You can produce hydrogen by splitting water using electricity. However the required amount of electricity is so high that it becomes much more viable to just...charge the car with that electricity. Which is why we have more electric cars than hydrogen cars, despite hydrogen seeming like a better option on the face of it (fast refills, like petrol).

---

F1 (and all motorsports) should decouple themselves from road relevance and just concentrate on being a sport.

[S griffin]

I was expecting more of a push for hydrogen cars. Just as I was expecting Bio fuels to have taken over by this point. I guess hydrogen just wasn't fashionable enough

Obviously hydrogen has the advantage of not being a fossil fuel, but doesn't seem to be renewable enough

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Obviously hydrogen has the advantage of not being a fossil fuel, but doesn't seem to be renewable enough

You might have to rethink that statement. About 95% of hydrogen produced in the world comes from fossil fuels.

[greentrumpet]

Still, synthetic fuels don't appear to have much to do with food crops and could be made in a sustainable fashion. Is that better Casper?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Says who?

About what? Do some reading on both points and get back to us.