[FIA GT] FIA GT2 Spa 24 Hours • Spa • July 30-Aug 1st

[arakis]

audi, audi, imsar(porsche, but i think the practice was in the wet sine the times were arpunf 2:45

pre qualifying is around 2:24

and its
ferrari
BMW
Audi
Porshe

[Spyderman]

....or even
Ferrari
BMW
Porsche
Audi

[arakis]

qualifying 1 started

[NightStalk3r]

This is just demonstrating everything that is wrong with GT3.

[Porsche917K]

Is there a place to stream this online? At least for quali and such?

[E46]

Even in this qualifying GT3 cars continue to see the pace. Certainly balance isn´t that good.

[E46]

Well, at least now AF Corse and Schnitzer take lead.

Session has been redflagged now.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by E46

Even in this qualifying GT3 cars continue to see the pace. Certainly balance isn´t that good.

I think your forgetting Spa is a power circuit and GT3 cars have a power advantage. Once you get the weight moving even if they weigh more, its only an issue in stopping or turning.

GT3 cars also have a much harder tire compound since they run sprint races with driver changes but no tire changes.

GT2 cars have an advantage in braking, high speed turns and transitions.

The GT3 cars are not much slower in GT Open than the GT2 cars for much of the same reasons.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I think your forgetting Spa is a power circuit and GT3 cars have a power advantage. Once you get the weight moving even if they weigh more, its only an issue in stopping or turning.

GT3 cars also have a much harder tire compound since they run sprint races with driver changes but no tire changes.

GT2 cars have an advantage in braking, high speed turns and transitions.

The GT3 cars are not much slower in GT Open than the GT2 cars for much of the same reasons.

Huh, what is there to forget? GT-3 should be slower than GT-2, period! Glossing over that fact does not change it.



L.P.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Huh, what is there to forget? GT-3 should be slower than GT-2, period! Glossing over that fact does not change it.

L.P.

How is that Glossing?

Most GT3 cars are making well over 500hp when GT2 cars are down around 450-500. Spa is a power circuit, it looks like GT2 is mostly faster in sector 2 (the twisty part of it). Sector 1 and Sector 3 are all about as much speed as you can muster. Sector one is Start/Finish and up the hill and Kemmel straight. Sector 2 is just about all downhill but hardly straight. Sector 3 is fast until you get to the last chicane.



This would explain why GT3's are fast and why one of the Audi R8 LMS finished 3rd overall last year.

Around Laguna Seca I would agree with you, GT2 should and would be faster. But I think this problem would raise its head again at tracks like Road America and Mosport.

This is like the LMP1/LMP2 problem but backwards.

[arakis]

this is a 24h rac, qually means nothing, I bet the gt3 cars do at least one lap less then the gt2's. my fealing is that either gt2 or gtn will win the race, and the real favorites are the porsche factory squad gt2s 23-16-13

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by arakis

this is a 24h rac, qually means nothing, I bet the gt3 cars do at least one lap less then the gt2's. my fealing is that either gt2 or gtn will win the race, and the real favorites are the porsche factory squad gt2s 23-16-13

I wouldn't bet on it - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_24_Hours_of_Spa

If I remember it was nip and tuck the entire time between the best of the GT2 cars and the best of the GT3 cars. GT3's are not being peddled by nobodies and weather comes into play it will remain close.

I don't care who wins as long as the race is good, which it should be at the front, the first 8-10 cars are within 2 seconds.

[rich07]

There are some strong lineups in GT3 so could cause a surprise.

Go AF Corse!

[dj4monie]

For the Americans still awake on the board -

FIA GT1 Qualifying should be on at 12:45am PST (3:45 EST) via GT1TV

Super Trofeo Race 1 at 2:15am PST (5:15 EST) only seen here

FIA GT1 Qualifying Race at 6:00am PST same as above, online only

Super Trofeo Race 2 at 7:30am PST, same as above, online only

[911targa]

porsche should be very unhappy if those GT3 Rs suffer troubles again after losing Nur24,i'm for a Muhlner GT3 win and GT2 porsche overall win.
anyway the Trackspeed GT3 RSR looks extremely slow,the 2010 car was even slower than 2 gentlemen 2008s enter by IMSA and ProSpeed,who did the Q lap for them?Ashburn?or they must have some tire troubles.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

How is that Glossing?

Most GT3 cars are making well over 500hp when GT2 cars are down around 450-500. Spa is a power circuit, it looks like GT2 is mostly faster in sector 2 (the twisty part of it). Sector 1 and Sector 3 are all about as much speed as you can muster. Sector one is Start/Finish and up the hill and Kemmel straight. Sector 2 is just about all downhill but hardly straight. Sector 3 is fast until you get to the last chicane.

Not so sure about the "well-over 500 bhp"-part. We know from Olaf Manthey's constant whining that his Porsches in VLN have been limited to 490 bhp and yet they are brutally competitive, so I guess others are somewhere around 500 bhp as well...

This would explain why GT3's are fast and why one of the Audi R8 LMS finished 3rd overall last year.

Around Laguna Seca I would agree with you, GT2 should and would be faster. But I think this problem would raise its head again at tracks like Road America and Mosport.

This is like the LMP1/LMP2 problem but backwards.

And that is, BTW, why Euro-GT3 can't replace GTC in ALMS...

[ubrben]

Interesting angle from DSC - simply believing what the FIA would like people to believe:

Dirk Werner has just reeled off a quick one. This placed the No. 79 BMW second fastest during the second of the evening’s three qualifying sessions, and the first of two regarded as being “night qualifying.”

In the first of our “senses of intuition”, this may be a marker of the power of the factory BMW effort. This may be a GT-only race, but by comparison to most cars in the field, the two M3s have a prototype-like quality. They are developmental cars, importantly running on very special state-of-the-art Dunlop's, while nearly all of the other entries use stock Michelins.

The Dunlop's are nothing like what's being run in ALMS and they'll quite happily sell you a set of what BMW are running. Indeed the Audi's ran the exact same rear tyre in the FIA GT3 balance of performance at Ricard in March. Hence the Dunlop's are just as "stock" as the Michelin's.

The idea that BMW are in GTN so Dunlop can run special tyres is simply and fundamentally incorrect.

Ben

[Truckosaurus]

Good Morning Everyone.

I'm looking forward to this. I'm on-call for work again this weekend so will be hanging around waiting for the phone to ring and following the race in the meantime.

Not sure who I shall be supporting yet, but I'm sure I can find some plucky backmarker to endorse.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Not so sure about the "well-over 500 bhp"-part. We know from Olaf Manthey's constant whining that his Porsches in VLN have been limited to 490 bhp and yet they are brutally competitive, so I guess others are somewhere around 500 bhp as well...




And that is, BTW, why Euro-GT3 can't replace GTC in ALMS...

Hold on a second... Firstly the Vette's are over 500hp easy, the B6 is over 500hp, the Ford GT is over 500hp. The Porsche maybe limited to 490hp but the wider tires and new aero parts (more downforce) don't hurt the Porsche that much.

And that's not a reason for not have GT3's. You replace all ten cars currently in the class with GT3 cars and you have several to choose from. My guess most teams would go with current winners in GT3 -

Audi R8 LMS
Callaway Corvette (I asked and they said its too soon but are interested)
BMW Z4 (should be easy sell)
Porsche GT3-R (should be easy as well)

I would guess the Lamborghini might be popular for GT3 as well

GT-E cars will have paddle shifters and some other change I forgot, but that should make them a bit quicker and I would say all the new GT2 cars are closer to 500hp as well.

You will be adding badly needed diversity to the class and here's a hit from LTC - http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...=719&Itemid=49

[ubrben]

It's only going to get worse. GT2 will become GT-E at Le Mans from next year and the fundamental issue is limiting performance so they don't get too close to an LMP2 lap time. They're slowing LMP2s for 2011...

FIA GT1 and GT3 have no requirement to fit those categories into any regulations window relative to a prototype.

Basically if Ratal insists on allowing GT3s to be as fast as GT2s I'd be in favour of having Spa 24 hours as a GT3 only event and leave GT2 in its new GT-E form to be Le Mans, LMS, ALMS, LMIC only as part of a mixed GT/LMP field.

Ben

[Speed-King]

You will be adding badly needed diversity to the class

Sometimes I feel like I am talking to a wall with you...
I am not against adding diversity, I am against adding FIA GT3-cars to GTC.

And here is (once again) why:

1. Costs: yeah, you don't think that'S an issue, but I guess we have to agree to disagree on that point - it remains an issue for me, especially when we consider:

2. Speed: GT3 is effectively about as fast as GT2, and while they might have somewhat different strengths, in the end result they are almost equal, as evidenced by various overall podiums of GT3 cars agains GT2s in Italy, Spain, and GT-Open or yesterday's qualifying for the 24hours, just to stay somewhat on topic*. Which leads me to:

3. Traffic: GT(2)-drivers are already complaining about how difficult it is to pass GTC-cars on the straights, how much worse is it going to be with the faster and more powerfull GT3s? And then, there is of course:

4: The intention of the class: GTC was established to introduce a cost effective entry-level class (and to line some pockets with Porsche money, but that's besides the point) - if you switch to FIA GT3-regs cost effectiveness will be a thing of the past, as will be the whole notion of it being a separate class. Just like the Porsche Spyder and Acura teams of 2008 only cared about overall victories, the only thing GT3 teams will care for is "best-placed-GT-car"... no matter if GT2 or GT3.
And if it's gonna be like that anyway, then why not include GT3 cars into GTE, as people have advocated in 2008 for LMP and which has finally been done this year - and leave GTC at the level it is at right now, albeit with some added variety by allowing cars that supplement and not supplant the current Porsche teams - perhaps like those in the pic below:



*I realize that it's me who has lead that thread off topic in the first place...

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by ubrben

Interesting angle from DSC - simply believing what the FIA would like people to believe:



The Dunlop's are nothing like what's being run in ALMS and they'll quite happily sell you a set of what BMW are running. Indeed the Audi's ran the exact same rear tyre in the FIA GT3 balance of performance at Ricard in March. Hence the Dunlop's are just as "stock" as the Michelin's.

The idea that BMW are in GTN so Dunlop can run special tyres is simply and fundamentally incorrect.

Ben

It was the FIA who forced BMW to enter GTN, not the other way around.

Ever since the M3 project started there were journalists who keep on telling people that the M3 is somewhat of an evil illegal supercar that will outpace everyone else if nothing is done..

The weird thing is that never happend, the car scored one ALMS win and won the Nürburgring 24h on reliability.. yet all this talk continues. No wonder BMW is fed up with GT2 and wants to concentrate on DTM... it's by far the least appreciated effort in this class I can remember for years.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It was the FIA who forced BMW to enter GTN, not the other way around.

Ever since the M3 project started there were journalists who keep on telling people that the M3 is somewhat of an evil illegal supercar that will outpace everyone else if nothing is done..

The weird thing is that never happend, the car scored one ALMS win and won the Nürburgring 24h on reliability.. yet all this talk continues. No wonder BMW is fed up with GT2 and wants to concentrate on DTM... it's by far the least appreciated effort in this class I can remember for years.

its not jurnalists, its simple facts the car is not in the spirit of the gt2 competition.
the gt2 class was set up as a gt class where Prviateers can compete with the cars that are very close to cars sold on the streets.
And the BMW has almost nothing to do with the street car!
the car was built by bmw the way they wanted it, tottaly diregarding the rules, and then they came to the aco and fia, here we have a car you better let it race

-I for one would be glad if they lay of the gt2 and concentrate on dtm, 1milion prototyps maskarading as gt2 cars, that can only b run by factory teams is not what the gt2 class needs

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by arakis

its not jurnalists, its simple facts the car is not in the spirit of the gt2 competition.
the gt2 class was set up as a gt class where Prviateers can compete with the cars that are very close to cars sold on the streets.
And the BMW has almost nothing to do with the street car!
the car was built by bmw the way they wanted it, tottaly diregarding the rules, and then they came to the aco and fia, here we have a car you better let it race

Right, because the entries of Porsche and Ferrari are purely privateer efforts..

And the M3 pretty much needs no waivers anymore aside from the transaxle gearbox which can also be found in the street car!

Plus, who cares...what counts is the performance. And has there been any instance where the M3 outpaced Porsche and Ferrari so far? No! Yet the whining goes on and on and on..

Porsche & Ferrari just don't accept any competition in what they consider "their" class and there seem to be lots of journalists willing to repeat their nonsense to the point of straight up lying.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by arakis

-I for one would be glad if they lay of the gt2 and concentrate on dtm, 1milion prototyps maskarading as gt2 cars, that can only b run by factory teams is not what the gt2 class needs

This is getting ridiculous...the M3 is not a prototype and it certainly does not cost a million Euros. Don't make stuff up to get your point across.