Historic Racing Today

[Mike Bell]

I think like a previous poster that FB and Twitter appeal more to younger enthusiasts and will have an impact on forums. I mentioned to a young person that was looking for a certain engine, and he quickly came up with one via a specific (to the car model) FB page!

And IMHO you can only discuss certain topics so many times before tedium becomes a factor.......

[bauble]

May I just say that in an earlier post I was not 'having a go' at the Mods who whether I agree or disagree with any 'hauling' they do I always accept the verdict as final. They are doing a job I would not want, and respect them for that, and I have found almost without exception that any 'pulling in' is always done in a friendly and helpful manner that does not cause ill feeling.

Having said that please do not think that I am a serial offender!!! Just the odd occasion.

So apologies to JT and TF who are both absolutely splendid chaps.

A contrite Crusty Old Git.

[zefarelly]

Me too, its got boring and repetitive and frankly I have better things to do with my limited time.

agreed, controversy either edited out or people just don't bother rising to the bait. Lets face it did it ever acheive anything, most people read and mutter to themselves without posting.

without those of us who are just happy to compete at our own level there would be no winning superhero's, 13th for most of us is a better feeling than a cheque book win?

I think I've been as vocal as anyone in the past, everyone knows my opinion already.

I think where we are now is a reflection on the histrionics game/business as a whole? THere seems to be plenty of keen new people, personally Its just work now and its lost its appeal somewhat.

Originally Posted by john ruston

I visit this forum less thsn I used to.

Notice there are less posts and not those of a awkward nature!

It's all about my car or wasn't our 13 th place in Class three wonderful.

Where are the threads of substance or the great spats like the Masters discussions.

Noticed a couple of discussion threads that could have promoted a heated discussion went nowhere.

Is this a reflection of the less interest in the racing or is this forum just going through a dormant period?

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Both Tim and John T have hit nail on head.

They do a good job and are very good blokes so the downturn must demoralising for them.

This Motor Sport thing is going though a slow period.

Let's hope it survives as not sure it will pull out of dip.

Are you saying there's a bit of a slump? Some magazines, promoters etc. keep telling us that historic motorsport is the fastest growing form of motorsport....

Of course what they appear to be talking about is the growth in the huge festivals (Goodwood, Silverstone, Le-Mans, Monaco etc.) and the series for more recent cars (Group C, supertouring road cars, DFV F1) e.g. the stuff for the super rich.

My feeling is that the 'old-fashioned/traditional' historic racer/enthusiast has been priced out of the market - cars, parts, labour and (UK) circuit fees are getting out of reach of many people.

Problem is there's only so much track time available and the circuit owners and clubs are naturally going to go for the most profitable option but as with current F1 etc. that might not be viable in the long term.

As for the youngsters I don't think there is a shortage of potential enthusiasts (plenty to be seen at historic events and those who race the more recent historic cars such as superboring saloons) but will they be able to afford it?

As with steam trains some time ago there was a feeling that the only people who remembered them were dying off, so there would be no interest from future generations but there are plenty of young volunteers etc and loads of lottery money has seen them booming.

There is an inconsistency in the popularity of historic series - 50s sports cars are very popular but 50s single seaters less so (but picking up because the sportscars are so dear), big engined 60s/70s sports racers popular but 70s 2 litre sportscars seem to be struggling etc.
VSCC pre-war races are popular but very few events for the top flight pre-war cars.
It seems unlikely that a fan of say 50s sportscars would not also like the contemporary single seaters so is this a reflection of the popularity (or hospitality) of the different organisers, or the differing running costs, or something else?

Peter

[Colin McKay]

The picture may not be as gloomy as it seems......as I write this at 09.30 on a Wednesday morning when most people should be busy at work, there are 9 members online but also 39 guests which suggests that even at this time of day there are lots of people who want to read the drivel some of us write. In the evening the guest numbers are often very high but go unoticed. These must be people who haven't previously enjoyed the last 5 annual discussions on seat belt lifing and the illegality of everyone else's cars

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

The picture may not be as gloomy as it seems......as I write this at 09.30 on a Wednesday morning when most people should be busy at work, there are 9 members online but also 39 guests which suggests that even at this time of day there are lots of people who want to read the drivel some of us write. In the evening the guest numbers are often very high but go unoticed. These must be people who haven't previously enjoyed the last 5 annual discussions on seat belt lifing and the illegality of everyone else's cars

Or it could be a sign of how many people are un (or under) employed...

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

The picture may not be as gloomy as it seems......as I write this at 09.30 on a Wednesday morning when most people should be busy at work, there are 9 members online but also 39 guests which suggests that even at this time of day there are lots of people who want to read the drivel some of us write. In the evening the guest numbers are often very high but go unoticed. These must be people who haven't previously enjoyed the last 5 annual discussions on seat belt lifing and the illegality of everyone else's cars

I agree with Colin. I think the historic racing scene is booming and even though some series may be seeing smaller grids (our HSCC/HRSR Historic Touring Cars series is 15% down on the boom of a couple of years ago) the explosion of new series/festivals has more than compensated for the reductions elsewhere.
When our merry little band joined the HSCC family around 20 years ago there were not many other clubs offering purely vintage/historic/classic racing and the only UK based festival was the Coys at Silverstone.

[zefarelly]

Its too expensive for young people, and even some of us approaching middle age are thinking its unaffordable, I'm being slowly priced out of certain markets, which is adding to the lack of appeal, particularly when I compare it to other hobbies and interests I have, It looks like a waste of money.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

when I compare it to other hobbies and interests I have, It looks like a waste of money.

It's always been a waste of money, if I had all the £s that have gone on various motorsports over the last 45 years I'd be a millionaire ! saying that a lot of it wasn't my money
However what is defined as a waste of money ?

[midgetman]

One of the privileges of being an internet marketer is that I have to be, well, on the internet! So after I've done my social media bit over breakfast I may leave the grab open so it looks like I'm still online. Or I leave Tapatalk open on my phone. Honest! ;-)

Falling numbers is a problem that is being masked by the big expensive events. The amount spent there makes it look like business is booming but scratch below the surface and the truth appears. Karting in some places is on its knees. I'm sure that will knock on to circuit racing in due course. One reason is that it isn't cool among the young any more, Alex is seen as a geekmfor his participation.

Of course participants are ageing, historic racing has traditionally been driven by older people reliving their youth. My youth was 70/80s and there's precious little in Historical for me to identify with. As time goes on it'll be the 90s which are not welcome in "historic" racing.

There. Controversy. Now linch ia over it's back to work and leaving my tablet logged in so it looks like I'm still browsing

[midgetman]

Apologies if I made lessmswnse than usual. Damned auto correct on Android!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Is it not because of the time of the year, ie pre season so not much happening?

On the other hand I think that everyone who wants race cars to be silenced are pussies and we should never have started to make cars quieter as the noise is an integral part of racing

And the smells. Whatever happened to the smells?

(No, I'm not talking about trackside facilities .... )

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by grantp

And the smells. Whatever happened to the smells?

(No, I'm not talking about trackside facilities .... )

Indeed. Perhaps all historic race cars should be forced to run on Castrol R and doped fuel.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Or it could be a sign of how many people are un (or under) employed...

or just plain retired, after all we know the profile is all old bu99ers (something I noticed with horror at RR last Friday, I'd estimate 99% male and 90% over 50).

[Colin McKay]

The age thing is right. There was a young lady with exceptionally long legs promoting somebody or other's stand at RR. All the historic historic racers were walking straight past without a second glance. I can confirm this because I studied the phenomenon for quite a while.

Can't remember whose stand it was, sorry, must be my age

[midgetman]

Abarth

Trust a young un

[Paul D]

I would echo some of the sentiments in this thread. I made a similar observation in the CSCC section a few weeks ago about how quiet it had gone in there!

I don't do Facebook, Twitter or any of those social media things, so this forum is it for me! I suspect quite a few of you are in the same boat, which means this place is where we get our 'fix' of motorsport related discussion - so if this dies, we're fooked! But despite that, I must admit to not visiting as much recently, for reasons already mentioned - and I guess that's the problem, because it becomes a vicious circle: less interesting discussions leads to less of us visiting regularly, which leads to less interesting discussions, and so it goes.

Partly I suspect it is due to the 'off-season', but I fear it may be more than that. In this country, I think historic motorsport (maybe even motorsport generally) is beginning to echo society in general, by which I mean there seems to be an ever increasing gap between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'. If I'm not mistaken, I suspect this forum is populated, in the main, by the have-nots, of which I include myself! I don't mean this in any sort of derogatory way - on the contrary, in fact. I see the have-nots as ordinary blokes, funding the racing as a hobby out of their own earned income. A lot will be doing just about everything themselves (as I do), but even those that can't, are probably still having a fair amount of input into their racing - preparation, logistics, etc.

Yes, there are some fortunate ones who are lucky enough, wealthy enough, appropriately connected or simply just very handy drivers, and can look forward to just turning up on the day at some high profile event and racing some very desirable machinery. But I suspect, with a few exceptions, those aren't the people who are regularly contributing to this (or any other) forum.

So what's my point? Well, it's this: motorsport may appear to be in rude health if we look at the number of well attended, high profile events, with often capacity entries of exotic machines - it may even actually be in rude health - I don't know. But if we look at the grass-roots stuff - the stuff that most of us on here compete in, then I'm not so sure. As Zef and others have already said, many of us are gradually being priced out of it by ever increasing costs, bonkers regulations that force us to spend money, often unnecessarily, and not just money, but the demands it puts on your time, which is just as important for some.

And if I'm right, and the majority of posters on here are in the latter group, then perhaps this explains the diminishing interest in the forum? And I'm not convinced there will be enough younger people coming in to fill the shoes of those who no longer find it sustainable. I believe there's just too much bureaucracy now to get young people interested. We live in a world now where the younger generations want - no, expect, even - instant gratification. They don't want all the hassle of ARDS tests, licence applications, medicals, safety inspections, specialist protective gear, and all the other bullshit that we racers have, over the years, simply sleep-walked into accepting as the norm. They want the buzz maybe, yes, but they want it now, without the hassle, delays and expense of going racing. Of course, I'm generalising here, and you'll all be able to cite exceptions. But it's no coincidence that things like trackdays, drifting, video games are all gaining in popularity - and what do they all have in common? You can more or less just turn up and have a go, without massive drains on your time or bank balance. And I'll wager that the average age of participants in these pastimes is a lot lower than the average age of us lot on here!

By the way - did I mention that I got a thirteenth in class C last time out? What a result! I'm so proud...

[Moosehead]

The Abarth girl collared my old man as he looked at the hot 500 jobbie.

As I eventually dragged him away he stated ''They're nice they are''

I'm not sure whether he was talking about the car or her 'assets'

[Nick JM]

im not too sure what those who are moaning about the irreverence of the postings on this forum are moaning about.

It is a forum for people with a common interest; it performs that task admirably.

At the risk of appearing controversial (the lack of which seems to be what has started this thread) perhaps those who are complaining (themselves with many thousands of posts) are merely fed up with talking to the same people as they have so many posts between them there is simply nothing left to say. A bit like a warring family being cooped up at Christmas!!

Meow......

[bauble]

So far twenty different members have posted on this thread, ten of whom have posted more than once. This contribution makes me the most prolific.

Don't you just love statistics?

Bauble.

[midgetman]

I'm not sure anyone is moaning about irreverence in fact I'm pretty sure it was the lack of irreverence that started JR off.

(OT - I just typed "irreverence" above and my tablet corrected it to "birds are nice"! Freudian? Hope Mrs MM doesn't read this)

>>>>>>>>.....motorsport may appear to be in rude health if we look at the number of well attended, high profile events, with often capacity entries of exotic machines - it may even actually be in rude health - I don't know. But if we look at the grass-roots stuff.....then I'm not so sure

You're right Paul. Entries are falling across the board and there's no one single cause. The karting world is pretty sure it can be laid at the MSA's door and non-MSA series are springing up nationwide. They blame the MSA for overregulation in the wrong place, unnecessary expense, and general poor governance. They also lay blame at the door of the win at all costs mentality which ISTR has cropped up here sometimes.

It is being argued that the MSA is increasingly divorced from entry level motor sport. It is being argued that as circuits can easily get their own insurance they need for the MSA is reduced. And indeed some good racing series exist outside of FIA/MSA governance: ovals are an example.

It is being argued that remove the MSA and costs fall, driving standards rise, and entries rise. There is quite a ground swell towards it. The circuits love it because there's no massive beareaucracy to be paid for and they keep 100% of the entry fee instead of sending the money to the MSA. And to be honest it seems to be working. A structure is envisaged - club level races non-MSA, national stuff under their jurisdiction.

Food for thought. Palmersport has the resources...the first circuit to break the ARCO ranks will open the floodgates.

[Tim Falce]

Max, I can't see the likes of Palmersport wanting to rock the boat for the sake of a clubbies when they'd have too much to lose, BTCC Superbikes etc. They already make a tidy sum from us so why would they want to change anything?

[Paul D]

I think Max makes a very good point re the MSA, and it sort of reinforces what I said about the amount of bureaucracy being a turn-off for many, especially younger types looking to get into the sport.

But Tim - you've nailed it too! Ask any economist if he thinks monopolies are good for anyone, and he'll tell you that the only people they're good for are the people who run them! And sadly, the MSA effectively have a monopoly on four-wheeled motorsport in this country. Probably 95%+ of it is run under their banner - and this means, unfortunately, that they can effectively do as they please as they have no competition (pun intended!).

We, as competitiors, cannot choose to race under another 'administrative banner', as there are none. So we're left with two choices: if we want to race, we have to do it to their tune, or, we give up racing entirely. Hobson's choice really, isn't it?

WTF that's got to do with numbers of posters on this forum I'm not sure, but there must be a correlation somewhere!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Paul D

WTF that's got to do with numbers of posters on this forum I'm not sure, but there must be a correlation somewhere!

I think we are getting our threads mixed up as thanks to JR we suddenly have three or four going.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by bauble

So far twenty different members have posted on this thread, ten of whom have posted more than once. This contribution makes me the most prolific.

Don't you just love statistics?

Bauble.

Yes, but you know that 77% of statistics are made up on the spot.