[DTM] How do you like the DTM ???

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by werner

Exept that the V8 supercars only have 2 brands as well.

I think the difference is that V8 Supercars has a lot less direct manufacturer involvement and a lot more competition between teams running the same brand.

In DTM there may be nominally 4 or 5 teams running Mercedes but in effect it's run as one big team. How many times have we seen on of the slower cars/teams deliberately employ 'spoiler' tactics when it comes to pit-stops and get in the way of a rival manufacturer. If the teams were genuinely separate would a driver be quite to willing to sacrifice their own race to help what should be a rival team who just happen to be running the same model of car.

In V8SC there may be varying levels of factory support and some teams running better equipment than other but on track it's every man for himself.

[FIRE]

That's indeed a big difference between V8's and DTM. I think if DTM would have that too it would be a big improvement.

[andy97]

If DTM adopted rules that were the technical equivelant of V8 Supercars then privateers would have instant access to cars to run from Oz. Might really open up the whole show. BMWs, Audis, Mercs, Fords, Holdens - could Jaguar & Lexus be tempted, too - would make a great series. Make Bathurst a "fly away" round of the championship, too. Would it ever happen? Nah! Sadly.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by andy97

If DTM adopted rules that were the technical equivelant of V8 Supercars then privateers would have instant access to cars to run from Oz. Might really open up the whole show. BMWs, Audis, Mercs, Fords, Holdens - could Jaguar & Lexus be tempted, too - would make a great series. Make Bathurst a "fly away" round of the championship, too. Would it ever happen? Nah! Sadly.

I don't think Ford and Holden want that. Besides that V8 Supercars only allows cars that are build in Australia.

[duke_toaster]

Ford wouldn't want that, Holden wouldn't want that, neither would the V8 Supercars sanctioning bodies want it. The reason the series was formed was because Japanese and European marques with superior hardware were beating the 5 litre V8 cars (the turbo Skylines and Sierras were totally banned, and the BMW M3s were suffocated), and they wanted Australian winners. It'd be like the BTCC setting up a set of rules to ban BMWs just because they're German and they want Rovers to win.

[andy97]

Guys you are missing the point. I am suggesting that DTM adopts V8SC rules IN EUROPE. Ford & Holden could supply cars to privateers IN EUROPE. OK, I suggested that Bathurst could be a fly away race but I ma not talking about the europeanisation of V8SC IN AUSTRALIA.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by andy97

Guys you are missing the point.

No, we get the point. You want to replace a manufacturer based series (albeit only two) using current production models (albeit in very highly modified form) with a privateer based series using models that aren't sold in Europe.

Interestingly this seems to be the complete opposite of your previous post - "Needs more manufacturers and simpler cars, a bit closer in relation to the road cars"

Originally Posted by FIRE

I don't think Ford and Holden want that.

I don't think anyone in Europe would want that either.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I don't think anyone in Europe would want that either.

Not sure. I prefer V8's over the current silhouette DTM cars.

But probably Mercedes and Audi doesn't want that.

[Dead-Eye]

Of course, spinning that theory a bit further, if DTM went to those rules Ford could simply use the Falcon drivetrain and chassis with a Mondeo-style body... - never going to happen obviously

[FIRE]

Talking about V8 Supercars. Isn't that something like NGTC? Body panels attached to a spec frame.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by redshoes

No, we get the point. You want to replace a manufacturer based series (albeit only two) using current production models (albeit in very highly modified form) with a privateer based series using models that aren't sold in Europe.

Interestingly this seems to be the complete opposite of your previous post - "Needs more manufacturers and simpler cars, a bit closer in relation to the road cars"


I don't think anyone in Europe would want that either.

No, No, No. I am suggesting that BMW, Merc, Audi, Jaguar etc etc etc build cars to the same concept as V8SC (ie more manufacturers). They can also sell them to whoever they like as well as running their own works teams, but Ford & GM (and privateers) could also join in quickly, easily & relatively cheaply if they wanted, with existing cars (the Holden is sold in Europe BTW) that have already been developed.

[redshoes]

So you mean something similar to V8SC but not actually V8SC, since those regs preclude anything other than Ford and Holden.

Why would Ford Europe want to put money into promoting a car than they don't sell. Is the Holden actually sold in Europe, specifically Germany as we are taking about a German Touring Car series. I know that Vauxhall sell a re-badged version in the UK but that is in such limited quantities that there's no point throwing a motorsport budget at it.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by redshoes

So you mean something similar to V8SC but not actually V8SC, since those regs preclude anything other than Ford and Holden.

I'm pretty sure we've been talking about technical rules all the time, not political decisions on who can come play and who can't.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

I'm pretty sure we've been talking about technical rules all the time, not political decisions on who can come play and who can't.

At last!
Back in post#28 I said the "technical equivalent of V8SC".

[Helmpflicht]

The DTM is hoping for an BMW-Entry. But the Munich-Manufactor wants an other DTM-Reglement. They want to have a Series with cars you can put into several Racing-Series (Like GT and S2000). At the Moment the DTM-Cars are just for the DTM (and f.e. the czech Endurance-Championship). What do you think ???
Which Rules are the best for the DTM, to become an really exciting Racing-Series like in the 90ies.

- The GT-Rules ???
- The S2000-Spec ???
- Is the current Reglement the best ???
- Do YOU have a great Idea ???

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

I'm pretty sure we've been talking about technical rules all the time, not political decisions on who can come play and who can't.

It might be a political decision but it's also part of the technical regs.

C 1.1 Technical Definition and Class
1.1.1 The requirements of this Division C apply to V8 Supercars, which are defined as largescale Production Touring Cars comprising a specialised class of 5 litre, Australian produced, right hand drive, four door Cars, fitted with pushrod two-valve normally aspirated V8 engines.

Doesn't specifically mention Ford and Holden by name but many other Australian produced 5-litre saloons do you now of.

DTM could adopt something similar to V8SC but it couldn't adopt V8SC technical regs, and without those any thoughts of a Bathurst showdown are gone.

Anyhow, don't we already have a V8 production based series in Europe - Superstars.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht

The DTM is hoping for an BMW-Entry. But the Munich-Manufactor wants an other DTM-Reglement. They want to have a Series with cars you can put into several Racing-Series (Like GT and S2000). At the Moment the DTM-Cars are just for the DTM (and f.e. the czech Endurance-Championship). What do you think ???
Which Rules are the best for the DTM, to become an really exciting Racing-Series like in the 90ies.

- The GT-Rules ???
- The S2000-Spec ???
- Is the current Reglement the best ???
- Do YOU have a great Idea ???

A sort of GT regs so we get 4 door versions of the BMW M3 GT2 car.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by redshoes

It might be a political decision but it's also part of the technical regs.

Doesn't specifically mention Ford and Holden by name but many other Australian produced 5-litre saloons do you now of.

DTM could adopt something similar to V8SC but it couldn't adopt V8SC technical regs, and without those any thoughts of a Bathurst showdown are gone.

I think the Australians would love it when DTM uses the Aussie V8 regs.....(it would create a lot of jobs Down Under )

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht

The DTM is hoping for an BMW-Entry. But the Munich-Manufactor wants an other DTM-Reglement. They want to have a Series with cars you can put into several Racing-Series (Like GT and S2000). At the Moment the DTM-Cars are just for the DTM (and f.e. the czech Endurance-Championship). What do you think ???
Which Rules are the best for the DTM, to become an really exciting Racing-Series like in the 90ies.

- The GT-Rules ???
- The S2000-Spec ???
- Is the current Reglement the best ???
- Do YOU have a great Idea ???

The thing with the DTM is that it's currently got a little bit of a delusion of grandeur, partially because of issues with the WTCC. Super 2000 was a great idea for a national series, and logical for a European but for the world stage I think it's lacking something. Couple that with its implications in other factors (and those of other things), meaning we have a two-race format, predominantly EU interest and calendar issues.

GT rules are for GT cars, and the DTM is a touring car series. Perhaps GT3 rules with four door cars could work if GT3 has a future. Or use GT2 but banning proper GT cars (leaving only perhaps the BMW M3 and the Rocketsports Jaaaaag from the current available cars).

The issue with Super 2000 is that it is firstly up for replacement, and secondly has cost issues. I like the sound of the NGTC rules that are going to be used in the BTCC in 2011, perhaps DTM could use them.

Interesting you mentioned Superstars, redshoes. People say about how they are spectacular, but they actually produce slower lap times than Super 2000 machinery. It's not a case of the S2000 cars being slow granny hatches, although I feel that the WTCC needs a little more

With regards to any bright ideas for rules, these would be more fitting for the WTCC which needs a major rebrand, these could be T1 and NGTC could become T2 (possibly allow a detuned version of these cars), but I feel a strong urge to post them . The starting point I based these on is Division 1 rallycross.

• Vehicles to be EuroNCAP Small Family Car or Large Family Car, but 4 doors.
• 2 litre turbo. Boost pressure and rev limiters set to keep power around 450-500hp. Fixed number of engines per season (two? three?).
• Vehicles converted to rear wheel drive. Perhaps four could be allowed but sacrificing things like flat floors.
• Reasonably wide slicks, larger rear than front.
• Minimum weight to be reasonable, 1030kg is the Div1 weight for a T2000cc car but it's 4WD. Perhaps 1000kg might be sensible.
• Vehicle track to be widened to a certain level (2m?) and homologated and CFD equalized wide body kits to match.
• Flat floor, large and useless rear wing (spec if it helps), make kids watching it on TV hide behind the sofa.
• Suspension free (steel only) but must be homologated.
• Sequential gearbox with limited number per season. 6 speed box, internal ratios the same, choice of a few final drives.
• Steel brakes, make them spec if it helps.

Could work for DTM, but I'd rather it was adopted by the WTCC. More expensive? Possibly. Much more marketable to marques, fans and certain other markets? I think so.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Doesn't specifically mention Ford and Holden by name but many other Australian produced 5-litre saloons do you now of.

The Aussie rules require a push-rod which is silly.

However, some hybrid rules between V8SC and GT racing specs (more high-tech) could have the following:

BMW M3 (sedan version)
Lexus IS F
Mercedes C 63 AMG
Audi RS4

and of course, also:
Vauxhall VXR8 (Triple Eight will be making these, perhaps they could get back together with Vauxhall?)
Ford Falcon
Dodge Charger
(they used could use the road-based motors 6.X L to keep the theme, instead of the NASCAR-based ones)

Even though they are all V8s, the more nimble M3s should be good on the small tracks, while the 6.X L American engined cars should be good on the fast tracks, the big engined but small bodided Mercedes should be good everywhere while the 5.X L Ford Falcon should be in the mix somewhere!


Ed - Forgot the Volvo S80 V8 of course, another car that could compete when heavily tuned even if the road car isn't "super" sporty.




Perhaps "non-production" cars could be allowed too, an Alfa equipped with a Ferrari V8 and RWD anyone? Such a car would be a beast!

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

an Alfa equipped with a Ferrari V8 and RWD anyone? Such a car would be a beast!

For example, Maseratti Quattroporte with Andrea Chiesa behind the wheel...

I think, you must talk with Flammini brothers about such serie. It would be great. Zakspeed Chrysler 300C with Pierluidgi Martini, ROAL BMW M3 with Gianni Morbidelli and Audi RS4 with young Philip Albuqerqe... mmm...

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

I voted, boring, I used to be a a DTM fan, but after OPC whithdrew, its too boring, I had enough from team orders and no overtaking ! it isn't touring car racing anymore, the cars are true prototype

[werner]

The problem in DTM with only 2 or 3 manufacturers is that the bosses will always interfere in the teams. In Australia the bosses of Holden and Ford are just not standing near the guardrail giving brandorders. I don't know if it is in the rules somewhere in Australia, but I would not be surprised if that is 'just not the way it goes' in Australia. The Germans on the other hand are known for their need to have everything under control. 'Ordnung must sein!' I think Haug and Ulrrich just would not be able to sleep if they could not make sure that for instance Scheider and Eki would not be slamming into eachother. Therefore they will always try to make sure that such thing would never happen. And the result is that you can only see fights if the car in front or behind you is from another brand, wich is not always the case when there are only 2 brands.
The solution must be that there are strict rules about financing, teamorders etc. that make sure that teams and drivers always have an incentive to attack, even if the car in front of them is of the same make. A solution could be that the manufacturers do not give cars, service, drivers and money to teams they pick tehmselves, but that they can only sell cars to teams, and with the money saved this way, they could fill a gigantic prizefund that makes it interesting for teams to join the series despite high costs.

From a techical point of view I would just ask for less aero and less fragile cars, but when that is taken care of, I feel the current type of car will work pretty fine for the DTM.

An idea for the manufacturers (and especially BMW) to sell more cars would be to start or take over a serie somewhere else with the same or comparable rules. I once suggested a North American Series. Both current brands and a few potential brands (Lexus, Alfa Romeo, BMW) are active on the market over there. At the moment there is, as far as I can see, no high profile touringcarseries exept for Nascar. Offcourse Nascar is quite powerfull and big, but it races mostly on ovals, so such a serie could focus on roadcourses. Secondly Nascar is focused on the south of the USA, and on the workersclass. This serie should focus more on the eastcoast, California and/or Canada, and, given the cars, on the more affluent consumers.
But I fear this is not the best time to start a serie...

[V8 Fireworks]

It could be a lot of fun?

If the budgets were $2-3m per car then it should be possible even with GFC.

The last time their was a (semi)professional touring car series (NATCC for super touring - professional entries from works Reynard built Dodges and some semi-works Hondas I think) they had some coverage on ESPN and ABC so it was quite reasonable.

You'd have a lot of Canadian races in the mix, and some of the races could be supports for ALMS/IRL street races.

Mercedes and Audi certainly aren't going to race in NASCAR, so such an American DTM series could be a good marketing vehicle for Mercedes, Audi, Lexus and perhaps Infiniti, Alfa, Volvo or Jaguar.

The cars would probably have to remain competitive for 2-3 seasons instead of 1, to keep costs down though and encourage private entries though.

(The series could start up by shipping over some 3-4 season old cars for sure, .)

[V8 Fireworks]

Then again, if they can hardly get a field in Germany where they get 100,000 crowds... how about in Canada and America... :\

Even with the restricted engines the cars must be somewhat dear to run. How much does it cost a privateer to buy and race a DTM car? (or can they only enter with 'blessing' of Audi or Mercedes...) At the moment do Audi and Mercedes pay most of the budget for all their cars regardless of the "sponsors"? Is there a way to get the costs to a level where they can be covered by commercially viable sponsorship?