Special Saloon/Super Saloon Register

[John Turner]

No surprise there though, chaps. We have to start somewhere though, and was there not an evolutionary process?

My first exposure to the early cars was at the St John Horsfall meeting at Silverstone in 1966. The Radio London Trophy 10 lap race for saloon cars included the Runham's 3.9 Mk11 Jaguars, 'Doc' M's 4.7V8 Cortina, and Phil De Banks 1650cc Anglia. The following year, I saw Mike(?) Bennion's 4.7V8 Morris Minor, and Tarrant's 4.6 V8 Chevy Austin A40. Later still, we had the Mick Hill V8 Capris, John Pope's Aston V8 engined Vauxhall Magnum, Bill Cox's V8 Capri and I even remember a Sunbeam H120 with a V8 (Chryler?) lump. Surely this is where it all started? Is this not where we should start?

[Steve Wilkinson]

For me the the Special Saloons category has to with the re-engined cars like Mick Hill's Jaguar engined Anglia and those mentioned by JT.

They are the fore runners of the Skodas & VWs without which the move to more specialised racing cars as the basis for the projects would never have happened.

[Alan Brown]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

For me the the Special Saloons category has to with the re-engined cars like Mick Hill's Jaguar engined Anglia and those mentioned by JT.

They are the fore runners of the Skodas & VWs without which the move to more specialised racing cars as the basis for the projects would never have happened.

Hear! Hear!

[driftwood]

Im afraid i would prefer to start at the begining a sits the drivers and teh cars that roll the concept forward afater a few years from steel sheel no arches to lighet panels wide wheels go faster motors into semi spaceframes onto the superloons etc
Darwin rules should apply to the evololution of the formula to get a super loon we need to see who went to that formula and why and what cars started as special saloons then get rebuilt into bigger better cars and why

I like the idea of seeing the Doc Cortina in its crude form from the 1960`s start the ball rolling into modified saloon cars with big motors and grow into F1 2 5000 based cars why start in the middle of evolution? i know we will keep dipping back in time on certain cars or drivers

[John Turner]

Right, here we go:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112873

Taken from many threads, so don't expect too much continuity. I've not included the Minis and Imps at this stage. I've also done very little editing. I've probably left out some posts that should be in and included some that should be out, but hey ho; you have to make allowance for my ignorance. Hope that you can work with it.

This is the longest time I've spent on building a thread since the early days of the archive, so I now claim a couple of weeks rest before I get onto the later cars. I hope that Allen, Dan etc will allow me this respite!

[driftwood]

GUYS how him no mercy!!!!!!

i will look thru these and see what we can glean maybe suggest some re eidt as we go

[Dan Rear]

I suggest some 'eidting' of your posts Drifty!!

[driftwood]

testicles dan testicles

[Dan Rear]

Only jokin' DW!!

By the way, you must remember the Roger Matthews 1500cc Donny GT Esprit, any idea what it was built on. At this time, c1981-82, there seemed to be as many Esprits as Skodas hitting the tracks, your Dad had his Europa against him didn't he?

[stevie m]

Here's some Esprit's from Ingliston 1982(Iain Nicolson's photos)

[driftwood]

Dan- im fick skinned !!!! will take more than you Brown Wilkinson etc to get at me
Esprits
Roger Mathews car was 1 of 2 new build Maguire built in 1982
Spaceframe chassis built with March 74B corners FT200 Alan Smith 1500 BDA special order ( my father saw it when we took the Imp there for chassis rejig) and he fell in love with it then
1 year later RM had to sell the car (taxman) and Roger waited 2 months for him to go see/collect the car (so busy with work) Roger wanted him to have the car- dad loved the car won the c/ship 84? sold car in 1990 to the Higgens boys who also had the sister car its been run under my nose twice last 3 years as roller less gearbox - ive sat on my hands not to buy it im not that emotional about cars/had other cars to spend my money on

the other Maguire Esprit was built for John Bothamly with 792 corners Hart 420R motor ( the car is the 2 shades of blue car in foto) car later went to Geoff Farmer to race then the Higgins boys had it no idea where it is now
i cannot work out who has the other car in foto it is center seater car

Other Esprits
Pat Thomas had Chevron B35 car BDG sold to John ( forgot his name) and he had it very nicely painted polished

Pat then had March 822 BMW car with body fitted BMW blew car was sold as F2 car to Horag. Ironically later became my fathers audi HSB Can am Interserie race car
George welly Potter had 7 litre chevy Esprit this went to Chris Crawford ( Oil rig man not ADA) who still retains it today

Dick Wallinger built 2 litre Esprit with Toleman running gear self built ground effect chassis. Later Ricky Gauld had the car later with 1 litre Imp power ray rowan eventually had it broke it up for Toleman parts to make a car with!

Tony Sugen Esprit (later became a skoda) built with remains of Jim Evans March 762 built on John Leek chassis with Turbo and V6 motors

There was an Esprit running mid to late 90`s at Oulton Park self built with Rover V8 it was not around in Donington GT days

Lotus Europa
Eric patterson had 1300 bda car built by Colin bennet on march 803 later had 1500 bda fitted
car then went to John Churchill with 2 litre BDG then BMW
then it went to Richard Gamble who fitted Rover V8 lump
car was last seen by me at Roger Hursts place as chassis only in yard body in the grass- Chassis was sold to build back as f3 car

Racing Fabrications built Europa for Paul Berman in 87 ish on S2000 chassis with 1500 BDA he never raced car and it was sold to Ian??? who raced it 89

John Firth raced Europa single seater based car 1500 BDA cannot recall what it was under the body

Lotus/Caterham 7
Rob Cox Allison had 3 of them called black bricks 2 cars for Modpsorts rules in the late 70`s
BB1 was a copy of the Dave Betteridge car i think Geoff Rumble built it
BB2 was built by Geoff Rumble at Dastle
BB3 was built by Racing Fabrications 1500 BDA for Donington GT racing

Lancia
037
Jim McGaughy took Jimmy Jack Toleman fitted pukka Lancia factory body to the car sold car kept BMW for FES thundersports car
Lancia still runs today with mazda power
Stratos
John Churchill built 1 car on march 832 from ZA with BMW power sold car to Cummings- car today may have AC3000 body fitted or lancia body fiotted to the AC3000 March 802 chassis with Duratec motor
Then JC built 3.3 DFZ powered car on Argo C1 chassis march 88B F3000 running gear

BMW M1
Jeff Wilson had Purleys Chevron B30 with GA V6 car was sold to McPhersons to run later back as B30 single seater
Mick Hill built a car with March body M1 7.6 litre Surtees engine on Lola T400 ( ex Durex Scott car) later to Kevin Riley /Val Musetti raced in Thundersports car broken up to rebuild T400 ( now in NZ) body still exists near Silverstone
AC3000 ME
Andy Barton built this on March 802 he had Hart motor then to Hotel man (in scotland name escapes me) then to Cummings

Skodas a seperate thread required for these
Mick Hills 7 litre car was called the Phoenix after a car was burnt in garage fire at home
Maguire built 1300 car for Tom Sheppard to race circa 1980 then it went hillclimbing/sprinting

[John Turner]

Since the above are built on racing chassis, and, with the possible exception of the Skodas don't even have 'saloon' type bodies, how are they special saloons or superloons or whatever? They sound more like a later version of modsports. Separate genre?

[Alan Brown]

I'll throw my thruppence worth into the ring. When was the term "Special Saloons" first used? MN 3-9-64 used it in the results at Snetterton, but it does seem to be used regularly until 1969.

Some cars extracted from MN:
1964

DP "Doc" Merfield Fraud Cortina Ford V8 4.7 (badly damaged at Goodwood May 1964 but obviously repaired).

Harry Ratcliffe Mini-Buick V8 3.5. MN 10-12-64 reports that Harry Ratcliffe tested a Vita-D built car with the engine in the rear driving forward by a Moss gearbox and ZF limited slip diff. to the oversize front wheels. Raced at the Boxing Day meeting at Mallory Park.

1965

Merfield Fraud Cortina again.

Harry Ratcliffe appeared not to race the Mini-Buick that much, concentrating on a "more nornal" Cooper S. Presumably the Mini-Buick set-up did not work.

Rod Embley 3.0 Twin Mini and Barry Hawkins Jaguar-engined Vitesse were both mentioned in a report in MN 16-9-05.

In addition Roger Nathan seems to have had a 1216 Climax in one of his Imps.

1966

Merfield Fraud Cortina again. Did the "Doc" return to Australia in 1966?

Terry Drury V8 Cortina (Ford 4.7).

Gerry + Mollie Dobbins Damfraud (Cortina Daimler V8 2548). Gerry raced it and they both hill-climbed it.

[driftwood]

well that was my point JT that really this concept needs to be done year at a time to show the Evolution of the standard steel shell saloon car thru the modified stage to the special saloon/Superloon era and than into the sports car based/spaceframe era and then the natural change into Donington GT racing that was effectively a merging of the near defunct Modsports series cars and the Special saloon cars
but hey what the firk do i know about racing cars - they say if you can remember the 60`s you where not there!!

As Mr Brown ( kent) has pointed out above by going year on year we start to see the modified cars already appearing in the mid 60`s
It would be great IF anyone had photos of these cars?
Re Nathan and teh 1200 cc Climax Imp
i do recall reading about the car in an Imp book - The Imp engine is a cousin of the Climax motor so it was not a major task to fit the Climax motor into the Imp compared to some of the other hybrid cars running around then

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Since the above are built on racing chassis, and, with the possible exception of the Skodas don't even have 'saloon' type bodies, how are they special saloons or superloons or whatever? They sound more like a later version of modsports. Separate genre?

I have a results sheet from Rufforth dated 15.10.66 and described as '10 lap scratch race for Special Saloon cars'. I also remember going to Croft and Rufforth in 1964 and 1965 and the term 'Special Saloons' was used then.

I think that in the late 50s and very early 60s saloon cars were raced in stripped down, modified engine and suspension style but retaining basic chassis and engines and were more 'modified production' than 'special saloon'. When engine transplants such as 1650 pushrods or twincams in Anglias,1800MGB in A40s, then that was when saloon cars became 'special'. This was probably 1962 or so.

[John Turner]

Absolutely, Morningents. My questioning of the title related to the later cars. The Esprit mentioned above, for example, maybe 'Special' but it sure as hell has nothing to do with any saloon I know! It's surely a special GT or sports car.

Drifty, I wasn't objecting to your proposal. I was saying that my input to such a split on an 'annual' basis would be limited because I don't know enough about the subject. I think that a year by year list may well emerge once we have started to get into the subject, although I can see just as good a split along the lines that Steve has proposed (#10) particularly as I'm guessing there was substantial overlap. The point is that if you want me to kick this off bringing various threads together, my limited knowledge of the technical differences means that you have to do the sorting AFTER I have brought the various posts together for you to work on! Given the amount of info on those threads, it surely makes better sense than starting from scratch. It's your call, guys.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Absolutely, Morningents. My questioning of the title related to the later cars. The Esprit mentioned above, for example, maybe 'Special' but it sure as hell has nothing to do with any saloon I know! It's surely a special GT or sports car.

Drifty, I wasn't objecting to your proposal. I was saying that my input to such a split on an 'annual' basis would be limited because I don't know enough about the subject. I think that a year by year list may well emerge once we have started to get into the subject, although I can see just as good a split along the lines that Steve has proposed (#10) particularly as I'm guessing there was substantial overlap. The point is that if you want me to kick this off bringing various threads together, my limited knowledge of the technical differences means that you have to do the sorting AFTER I have brought the various posts together for you to work on! Given the amount of info on those threads, it surely makes better sense than starting from scratch. It's your call, guys.

Whilst just looking back at programmes from 1983 to 1986 inclusive the Donington and North West GTs were running alongside the special saloon & Thundersaloon races, however there were what i would call saloons running in the GT championships just to complicate matters!

[driftwood]

JT people always recall the famous cars hence why the esprits where posted earlier and i just responded with what little knowledge i have
what worries me is this will persist for 2 weeks and we get duplication on cars cos someone joins in & does not read the tread and we jump to n forth across years nowt gets sorted
starting year on year get the main names cars listed and we will gently roll into each concept of car/spec/rules

[allenbrown]

This is the sort of thing I had in mind. Steve, Dan - what do you think?

http://www.oldracingcars.info/specia...list-1964-1993

[driftwood]

and what about me? oh i see 1 way ticket to Coventry!
ideally the list could do with fotos along side to help ID cars i would refer to the other site for many references

more info from reading 72 AS
Mick Hills Janglia seems to be raced mid jun july ish by Alan Tobias at Croft
Chris meek has a very wide escort with ford 5.7 litre motor- i am guessing ths later goes to Doug Niven
he later throws the car over the toilet block at Ingliston in 75 writes off the car keeps motor fits to the ex Toleman Hawker Capri
Daf 33 Hazelwood builds it races it then sells it to Minshaw but i think in between colin foley has a drive or share in car?
afterwards Tony H builds the Jag XJ8? in 75 runs it few times

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by driftwood

.... what worries me is this will persist for 2 weeks and we get duplication on cars cos someone joins in & does not read the tread and we jump to n forth across years ....

Yep, always happens; goes with the territory, I'm afraid.

I like the look of Allen's list. Once as many of the cars as possible have been identified, are we then going into the individual histories and subsequent ownership.

Finally, is what I have done on the earlier cars useful for this exercise, because if not, I won't bother with the later cars?

Oh, and Allen, should I and the others join Drifty in Coventry?

[allenbrown]

I don't know why I just asked Dan and Steve that question. I think it was just because they had supported the year-on-year approach .... which was Drifty's idea in the first place so I guess I should just stop digging at this point...

Yes John, it was useful. And yes, individual histories should be the next step.

No Drifty, you're not sent to Coventry, it's just that I thought your skills were more around unearthing the information rather than organising it. At least I seem to remember that's what you said to me.

[John Turner]

I have just made an entry on the thread. Is this how we should do it? Of course results would be better still, I guess.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

This is the sort of thing I had in mind. Steve, Dan - what do you think?

http://www.oldracingcars.info/specia...list-1964-1993

The format looks fine and would be easy to maintain/update. The only problem I can possibly see is where there are multiple cars with the same configuration (e.g. Ford Anglia + Lotus Twin Cam) and then trying to identify from year to year which cars are which.

[driftwood]

Allen boarding train from Coventry with my puppy
yes yr right i cannot organise orgy in a brothel i will leave that for you to do
re car description duplication= car photos was my suggestion i know copywrite nonsense etc but we must just grab now any pics AS off the blue yonder 70`s site for "our " reference etc so maybe u "host" the thread on ORC site off line and let us yappers look see mail u direct these illegal fotos