“The Sky Is Falling”

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Hmmm, sorry to disagree but there is a huge range of sedans available and a good number are still sold. The idea of SUV racing is just yuck. Although you could include wagons in the mix so you get your Audi RS6's and the like.

Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Volswagen, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Alfa Romeo, Mazda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Kia, Peugeot, Renault, Volvo, Skoda, Seat, Suzuki - all sell a range of 4 door saloon cars. Plenty of scope for variety and entertainment.

Look forward 5 to 8 years and what do you see happening in the market place? very few sedans and fewer sedans with ICE drive lines is what my crystal ball tells me. Why would any manufacturer want their car in a silhouette series that is irrelevant to their main markets in other countries. Oz is a miniscule market for manufacturers who no longer have manufacturing facilities here so a series based around that concept no longer works. All that without even considering the driveline issues more entries would raise, they can't handle 2 different motors so any additional entries would be impossible and given the move away from ICE most probably irrelevant anyway.

Consider your list and tell us why any of those manufacturers would want to enter, at least three of them are either on the verge of exiting the Oz market, most of them sell only miniscule amounts here, most sedans from that list are entirely unsuitable unless we return to class racing which would be an excellent idea IMHO etc etc.

Manufacturers that had a presence in Oz motor sport because they had either manufacturing or CKD operations here is quite long for a country our size.

Renault

Nissan

Holden

Ford

Toyota

Mitsubishi

British Leyland

Volkswagen

Volvo??

The sad fact is they have all left and apart from a select few have very little presence here.

So, tell me why any of those minor brands would want their product *******ised into a circuit car for a market they have very little interest in when their marketing plans are NOW moving away from ICE in the foreseeable future. It simply does not make sense with any logical consideration longer than five seconds.

ALERT ALERT! The basis of the series no longer exists so why continue to flog it to the fans when their interest as it was has been removed and will continue in a downward spiral because the cars either can't be bought here or are only in a specialist end of the market for a select few. How many fans own a Mustang, I would venture not many judging by the sales figures.

I could rant on but this will do for now and thanks for taking the time to read it.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Casper

Look forward 5 to 8 years and what do you see happening in the market place? very few sedans and fewer sedans with ICE drive lines is what my crystal ball tells me. Why would any manufacturer want their car in a silhouette series that is irrelevant to their main markets in other countries. Oz is a miniscule market for manufacturers who no longer have manufacturing facilities here so a series based around that concept no longer works. All that without even considering the driveline issues more entries would raise, they can't handle 2 different motors so any additional entries would be impossible and given the move away from ICE most probably irrelevant anyway.

Consider your list and tell us why any of those manufacturers would want to enter, at least three of them are either on the verge of exiting the Oz market, most of them sell only miniscule amounts here, most sedans from that list are entirely unsuitable unless we return to class racing which would be an excellent idea IMHO etc etc.

Manufacturers that had a presence in Oz motor sport because they had either manufacturing or CKD operations here is quite long for a country our size.

Renault

Nissan

Holden

Ford

Toyota

Mitsubishi

British Leyland

Volkswagen

Volvo??

The sad fact is they have all left and apart from a select few have very little presence here.

So, tell me why any of those minor brands would want their product *******ised into a circuit car for a market they have very little interest in when their marketing plans are NOW moving away from ICE in the foreseeable future. It simply does not make sense with any logical consideration longer than five seconds.

ALERT ALERT! The basis of the series no longer exists so why continue to flog it to the fans when their interest as it was has been removed and will continue in a downward spiral because the cars either can't be bought here or are only in a specialist end of the market for a select few. How many fans own a Mustang, I would venture not many judging by the sales figures.

I could rant on but this will do for now and thanks for taking the time to read it.

You are assuming works teams - the vast majority of entrants are privateers, if well-financed ones.

I'm not convinced the entire world is going electric and it definitely isn't going diesel, so mark my words you will still be able to buy this type of car 10 years from now. Maybe powerplant will have evolved, maybe not. Things haven't really changed in the last 20 years apart from EV's being more practical than they were.

And since when are motorsport class regulations meant to last 10 years? Even in F1 they change them every 5-7 years.

BTW you can buy all of those brands from dealers in NZ, I presume therefore that Australia is the same. I agree however that Mustangs and Camaros have little if any relevance in either of our countries. Not sure why you would mention British Leyland, as they have been defunct for decades.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Volswagen, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Alfa Romeo, Mazda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Hyundai, Kia, Peugeot, Renault, Volvo, Skoda, Seat, Suzuki - all sell a range of 4 door saloon cars. Plenty of scope for variety and entertainment.

It would be fun to say "the ATCC will be held to Improved Production regulations" or "the ATCC will be held to Sports Sedan regulations".

May the best engineer win! Whether you want to start with a Alfa Romeo Giulia or Nissan GT-R, it's all good!

It's a shame that the only categories with engineering freedoms are contested (primarily) by amateur racers who don't have the resources to explore the rules to the limit. I think the larger ATCC teams could do a lot with those nice open rules.

Instead, there seems to be too much pandering to "boltie" teams like Team 18, who don't even have a fabrication shop or machine shop, under current ATCC financial arragements...

These are all the rules you need surely?

Improved Production Group 3J regulations
https://www.motorsport.org.au/docs/d...6-group-3j.pdf

[I haven't checked the appendices carefully as to whether the R35 GT-R is allowed, I don't see why it wouldn't be.]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

You are assuming works teams - the vast majority of entrants are privateers, if well-financed ones.

Improved Production is already contested by privateers, what's the difference if ATCC touring cars are also contested to Improved Production by more well financed privateers?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Hmmm, sorry to disagree but there is a huge range of sedans available and a good number are still sold. The idea of SUV racing is just yuck. Although you could include wagons in the mix so you get your Audi RS6's and the like.

There is literally not a sedan on the top 10 car sales any more.

Nobody is going to pay money for people to race them.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Mixer

There is literally not a sedan on the top 10 car sales any more.

Nobody is going to pay money for people to race them.

The Mustang and Chevrolet in general are also absent.

Top 10 brands in 2023:
Toyota – 215,240
Mazda – 100,008
Ford – 87,800
Kia – 76,120
Hyundai – 75,183
Mitsubishi – 63,511
MG – 58,346
Tesla – 46,116
Subaru – 46,114
Isuzu Ute – 45,341

Top 10 vehicles in 2023:
Ford Ranger – 63,356
Toyota HiLux – 61,111
Isuzu D-MAX – 31,202
Toyota RAV4 – 29,627
MG ZS – 29,258
Tesla Model Y – 28,769
Mitsubishi Outlander – 24,263
Mazda CX-5 – 23,083
Hyundai Tucson – 21,224
Toyota Prado – 20,710

Top models for individual segments in 2023:
Micro car – Kia Picanto (7706)
Light car – MG3 (15,430)
Small car – Hyundai i30 (20,626)
Medium car – Tesla Model 3 (17,347)
Large car – Kia Stinger (1806)
People-mover – Kia Carnival (11,312)
Sports car – Subaru BRZ (1573)
Light SUV – Mazda CX-3 (15,776)
Small SUV – MG ZS (29,258)
Medium SUV – Toyota RAV4 (29,627)
Large SUV – Toyota Prado (20,710)
Upper-large SUV – Toyota LandCruiser 300 Series (15,035)
Van – Toyota HiAce (7133)
4x2 Ute – Toyota HiLux (12,116)
4x4 Ute – Ford Ranger (58,261)
Full-size Ute – RAM 1500 (5922)

Source: https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...record-143992/

[Mixer]

Irrelevant because they are aspirational.

Sedans are not.

People buy SUVs but they covet the sports car.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Irrelevant because they are aspirational.

Sedans are not.

People buy SUVs but they covet the sports car.

What are you on about or more likely on?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Casper

What are you on about or more likely on?

Nobody is going to pay to advertise a boring grocery getter that isn't even a volume seller anymore.

People do however pay money to promote their brand via aspirational cars like the Mustang and Camaro because people ASPIRE to own them.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Nobody is going to pay to advertise a boring grocery getter that isn't even a volume seller anymore.

People do however pay money to promote their brand via aspirational cars like the Mustang and Camaro because people ASPIRE to own them.

If they don't make it you can't buy it so all interest goes away, no interest no series.

[Goat Boy]

I'm not talking boring grocery getters anyway - cars like the BMW M3/M5, Alfa Romeo Giulia, Kia Stinger, Jaguar XE, Audi RS4/RS6, AMG Mercedes C63, Subaru WRX, Honda Civic Type R, etc. etc.

Plenty of entertaining prospects there, and TBH I'd be happy to own any of them.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

I'm not talking boring grocery getters anyway - cars like the BMW M3/M5, Alfa Romeo Giulia, Kia Stinger, Jaguar XE, Audi RS4/RS6, AMG Mercedes C63, Subaru WRX, Honda Civic Type R, etc. etc.

Plenty of entertaining prospects there, and TBH I'd be happy to own any of them.

Why do you think those cars are not used already?

You do understand that the sedan is slowly being phased out as was the station wagon years ago apart from a few oddities (RS Audis) in the shooting brake form. The conversion to BEV will further reduce the sedans available but Tesla do some really quick ones that should work.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

Why do you think those cars are not used already?

In the Australian Touring Car Championships?

There's two equivalent reasons, surely:

1. It's a silhouette championship and manufacturer approvals and/or funding are needed, which they are not inclined to grant for a category with low commercial return and without aligned regulations with other international formulae (e.g., no attempt by ATCC organisers to achieve a combined regulation set with Brasil Stock Cars, Turismo Carretera or DTM).

2. It's not a production-based championship, where anyone can build a racecar out of any of those suitable donor vehicles. Many of the aforementioned cars are raced happily in Series Production and the Bathurst 6-hour.

Addressing point (2) by moving to an Improved Production-like formula would alleviate those concerns. If that means everyone runs a BMW M4 because that's the best choice? So be it. There are only two different faux vehicles in the ATCC anywhere, it's hardly an embarrassment of riches as it is!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

In the Australian Touring Car Championships?

There's two equivalent reasons, surely:

1. It's a silhouette championship and manufacturer approvals and/or funding are needed, which they are not inclined to grant for a category with low commercial return and without aligned regulations with other international formulae (e.g., no attempt by ATCC organisers to achieve a combined regulation set with Brasil Stock Cars, Turismo Carretera or DTM).

2. It's not a production-based championship, where anyone can build a racecar out of any of those suitable donor vehicles. Many of the aforementioned cars are raced happily in Series Production and the Bathurst 6-hour.

Addressing point (2) by moving to an Improved Production-like formula would alleviate those concerns. If that means everyone runs a BMW M4 because that's the best choice? So be it. There are only two different faux vehicles in the ATCC anywhere, it's hardly an embarrassment of riches as it is!

All that and just maybe they are simply not interested and never have been. Back in the past SC was invented to be a contest between Holden and Ford and everyone else who may have been interested was most probably told to go away, just surmising here but it seems a reasonable assumption because they were simply not needed. The Europeans have never been interested and are now neck deep in closing down all ICE production and ramping up BEV R&D and planning the changeover so anyone who thinks they are interested is smoking some good stuff and if they message me their supplier I would appreciate it.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

The Europeans have never been interested and are now neck deep in closing down all ICE production and ramping up BEV R&D and planning the changeover so anyone who thinks they are interested is smoking some good stuff and if they message me their supplier I would appreciate it.

Yet there is BMW M and Audi Sport signage all over the Bathurst 12 hour, and Porsche are even willing to supply the electric ATCC safety car.

So what is missing to get them to further increase their involvement in Australian touring car racing and Supercars?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Yet there is BMW M and Audi Sport signage all over the Bathurst 12 hour, and Porsche are even willing to supply the electric ATCC safety car.

So what is missing to get them to further increase their involvement in Australian touring car racing and Supercars?

Pretty simple and very, very obvious really.

For starters, extending an existing international program into a one-off 12 hour race is pretty easy - just need to fly (or float) the car(s) & gear here, fly in the crew, adjust the budget and get on with it. Committing to development of a car and multiple seasons is a vastly larger financial commitment.

Same goes for provision of a Safety Car (Audi has done that in the past too). It isn't a big cost to the manufacturer and provides some brand exposure with no risk of being beaten.

Then there's brand risk - if Audi or BMW or Porsche competed in Supercars, if they win then the reaction is "well of course they won - they're high end performance cars - a Camaro or Mustang shouldn't get anywhere near them" but if they get beaten, then its "those German cars aren't all that special after all - beaten by Camaros and/or Mustangs" and they get a big hit on their desirability and market position. Big risk to take and one that requires a high level of commitment. BTW, Toyota found this out the hard way after spending over a billion per year in F1 - didn't win a single race and their own market research showed that the brand was taking a pummelling and consider a "loser" brand - no wonder they got out of F1.

Those are just a few of the reasons.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Yet there is BMW M and Audi Sport signage all over the Bathurst 12 hour, and Porsche are even willing to supply the electric ATCC safety car.

So what is missing to get them to further increase their involvement in Australian touring car racing and Supercars?

You might be right about the advertising so why doesn't that translate to entries in SC? That can't be a serious question, surely not.

Do think Porsche are going to enter SC with an electric Taycan? What other motive do you think they might have, if you asked the question you must have a reason to post it here so you must have the answer. Again, you really can't be serious for posting the above questions that have nothing to do with the sky falling on the SC grid. I notice Goat Boy has not come back with an answer either.

[bluesport]

The reason that other manufacturers don't enter supercars is because it is a bad category to be involved in due to technical parity.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

You might be right about the advertising so why doesn't that translate to entries in SC? That can't be a serious question, surely not.

Of course it is a serious question. All three manufacturers have GT3 cars.

Whether it's a GT3 or a new regulation set without driver aids, the onus was on ATCC organisers to develop a wide-ranging regulation set attractive to many manufacturers.

Why not a joint set of regulations developed with DTM to accommodate both turbocharged and V8 performance coupes? Based primarily on the BMW M4 and Audi RS5 but also with provision for Ford Mustang, Nissan Z and so on?

Or a joint set of regulations developed with Turismo Carretera or Brasil Stock Cars?

Originally Posted by Tourer

Then there's brand risk - if Audi or BMW or Porsche competed in Supercars, if they win then the reaction is "well of course they won - they're high end performance cars - a Camaro or Mustang shouldn't get anywhere near them"

...and whose fault is it for driving away BMW Motorsport Australia and Nissan Motorsport.

ATCC could have gone 2000cc and enjoyed the support of not only BMW Motorsport but also Audi Sport and Toyota, instead of a damaging split with BMW Motorsport starting their own series.

That's why it is so important for ATCC organisers to make amends for past wrongs.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Of course it is a serious question. All three manufacturers have GT3 cars.

Whether it's a GT3 or a new regulation set without driver aids, the onus was on ATCC organisers to develop a wide-ranging regulation set attractive to many manufacturers.

Why not a joint set of regulations developed with DTM to accommodate both turbocharged and V8 performance coupes? Based primarily on the BMW M4 and Audi RS5 but also with provision for Ford Mustang, Nissan Z and so on?

Or a joint set of regulations developed with Turismo Carretera or Brasil Stock Cars?

That response proves my point, you aren't seriously expecting SC to abandon the format they have when they have recently paid a shed load of money for it and they have shown they have no intention of moving to any other alternative. Talk about wishful thinking!!!!

[Umai Naa]

It is the way it is, purely for the sake of Supercars being able to own and control as much of the IP as possible. From the appearance and specs of the cars, right down to the nuts and bolts.

There are less and less off the shelf parts on them now than ever before. Everything has a Supercars branding on it.

Try putting that one past a corporate Audi, BMW etc motorsport arm, which typically controls it's own destiny.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

It is the way it is, purely for the sake of Supercars being able to own and control as much of the IP as possible. From the appearance and specs of the cars, right down to the nuts and bolts.

There are less and less off the shelf parts on them now than ever before. Everything has a Supercars branding on it.

Try putting that one past a corporate Audi, BMW etc motorsport arm, which typically controls it's own destiny.

This man gets it, I have mentioned before that the corporates who have the cars and IF they were interested would want to run their own drivelines. Try getting parity with a turbo anything to a 2 valve Chev. Best of luck with that.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by bluesport

The reason that other manufacturers don't enter supercars is because it is a bad category to be involved in due to technical parity.

A minor reason.If you think brands like BMW and Audi want to position themselves as an equal manufacturer to GM and Ford you have no idea.
Why would those manufacturers want parity with a shitbox boganmobile.That is not their market.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Why not a joint set of regulations developed with DTM to accommodate both turbocharged and V8 performance coupes? Based primarily on the BMW M4 and Audi RS5 but also with provision for Ford Mustang, Nissan Z and so on?

IMO that would be a perfect solution for both championships. Not sure about what such a ruleset should look like but such a partnership between both series would benefit them. Both DTM and Supercars could be facing (if not already) a bit of an identity crisis, the 'profile' of both is quite similar and it could work well. Similar as DTM's previous partnership with Super GT.
One of the problems though is that German manufacturers are allegedly only interested in electric cars, this could hamper any idea of anything other than pure EVs. This is partly why DTM is staying with GT3 cars for now.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Alan52

A minor reason.If you think brands like BMW and Audi want to position themselves as an equal manufacturer to GM and Ford you have no idea.
Why would those manufacturers want parity with a shitbox boganmobile.That is not their market.

Yet both brands are happy to be BOP’d with Mustang and Camaro in GT racing in years past

[Umai Naa]

From a customer racing perspective, Audi can shift in the vicinity of 200 cars of any given model, whether it be TCR, GT4 or GT3. Plus parts, and renting out engineers and drivers. BOP is but a minor inconvenience.

Why would they bother sinking a 7-figure sum into maybe 4 cars, in a niche market, that haved little if any, Audi DNA in them?