Winkelmann-Palliser - Page 2

Chris Townsend · 9 Mar 2005, 10:06 (Ref:1247501)

Would you believe that race was 72 or early 73. Magee used the car which was a WDF3-2, in both years I think. Certainly in 1972 it was described as ex Peter Lamplough. If it was thrown away that suggests that the F3 car which survived was the one used in 1971 by Derek Lawrence.

Dan Rear · 9 Mar 2005, 10:39 (Ref:1247533)

Wasn't Syd Fox's 'TON' based on a Palliser F3 tub ?

James Murray · 9 Mar 2005, 14:08 (Ref:1247716)

Having looked at the FIA papers wdf3-2 was used by a guy called Rod Vickery in 1981 pre 85 formula ford, there is nothing preceeding this info. I guess it's possible it started life as an F3 which was later converted to FF. Does anyone know what the chassis plate designations were for the f3 and the ff. My understanding was as follows:-

WD3-F3
WDF3-FF
WDB3-FB/ATLANTIC

The 3 being the subsequent model number not a reference to its class designation. Is this correct?

Steve Wilkinson · 9 Mar 2005, 15:46 (Ref:1247808)

The following is a list of the Pallisers I saw between 1970 and 1972. The type number where provided is as per the programme.

22/03/70 Brands Hatch FF1600 Peter Lamplough
26/04/70 Silverstone F3 Roger Keele (WD3)
22/08/70 Oulton Park F3 Roger Keele (WD3)
14/03/71 Mallory Park FF1600 Damien Magee, Clive Santo & Buzz Buzaglo (WDF3) plus Russell Wood (WDF2)
08/05/71 Silverstone F3 Peter Lamplough (WDF3)
20/06/71 DOUNE Hillclimb Mike MacDowel (WDA/B)
10/07/71 Croft F3 Peter Lamplough & Derek Lawrence (WDF3)
17/07/71 Silverstone F3 Peter Lamplough (WDF3)
01/08/71 Nurburgring FVee Rolf Tellsten
21/08/71 Oulton Park F3 Peter Lamplough & Derek Lawrence (WDF3)
31/03/72 Oulton Park F3 Damien Magee (WDF4)
31/03/72 Oulton Park FF1600 Mike Taylor (WDF2)
22/04/72 Silverstone FF1600 Peter Coston, Ian Beresford, Stephen South and Chris Pryer (WDF3); Mike Taylor & Rod Smith (WDF2); Steven Coen (WDF2/3) plus David Wadham-Smith (WDF1)
22/04/72 Silverstone F3 Damien Magee (WDF4)
21/05/72 Silverstone FF1600 Steven Coen and Ian Beresford (as previous)
29/05/72 Oulton Park FF1600 Ian Beresford (as previous) plus Edward Wilcox
18/06/72 Silverstone FF1600 Chris Pryer, Ian Beresford and Peter Coston (as previous)
14/10/72 Oulton Park FF1600 Stephen South, Edward Wilcox and Chris Pryer (as previous)

Hope this adds to the discussion!

GarethW · 11 Mar 2005, 17:38 (Ref:1249761)

Hi,

This is my first post, so hopefully it will work OK. Having scanned this forum for a while, I decided to take the plunge and join as my car was being discussed!

I own the ex-Lamplough/Magee Palliser WDF3 (confirmed in FIA papers) and currently race it in the Classic F3 series which is now back to full championship status in the HSCC.

The car had previously been raced in the series very successfully by Barrie Maskell who won the 1600cc class with it in 1991-93 when the 1600cc class was I believe very competitive.

I have just had the car re-built (courtesy of Peter and James Denty) and am looking forward to a full season this year having done a number of races last year (in a Mallock Mk11b) and the year before (in the Palliser). The information here is great and very helpful as I am trying to learn more about the car and about Palliser's in general (I spent several productive hours combing through early '70s Autosports at Stoneleigh a couple of weeks back).

Ol'_Motorhead · 12 Mar 2005, 14:11 (Ref:1250285)

"I own the ex-Lamplough/Magee Palliser WDF3 (confirmed in FIA papers) and currently race it in the Classic F3 series which is now back to full championship status in the HSCC."

Welcome to this site - lots of enthusiasts with amazing knowledge of the Sport.

I too have a Palliser - a WDF-2 that started life as an "inventory car" at Robert Winkelmann's concern in California in 1970. I don't know much else about its' history other than the last owner and so far I've not been able to track him down.

Check out this site if you haven't already.

<<www.f3classic.co.uk/Manufacturers/Palliser/palliser.htm>>

Cheers.

A. C. E. motors · 16 Mar 2005, 04:47 (Ref:1253091)

Hi Chris.
I may be able to explain how Vern Shuppan’s car appears to be in two places at the same time.
In 1970 Roger Keele drove the WDB3 works development Palliser, in 1 litre F3. At the end of 1970 this car went back to Palliser.
In 1971, Schuppan was due to drive the works development WDB4 in Formula Atlantic, but the car wasn’t ready. So Palliser fitted a BRM twin cam in to Roger Keele’s car, and Schuppan raced this car for the first couple of races until his own car was ready. So Schuppan drove two races with Keele’s converted F3 car, then the rest of the season in his WDB4.
Roger Keele’s car is now owned and raced by his younger brother Tony Keele, with the HSCC in Formula Atlantic spec.
More information and conformation about this can be found in AutoSport December 17th 1970 pages 8&9, and AutoSport March 25th 1971 page 25.
Hope this helps.

marinmcgreevy · 16 Oct 2005, 03:53 (Ref:1434726)

I am hoping someone remembers this car. It is a Palliser/Winkelmann Formula Atlantic. The story I have heard is that the car was built as a Palliser and originally fitted with the Cosworth BDA and raced in England. At some point the car came to the US (California) where this body was fitted. The body is all aluminum and built by a fabricator named Hageman. I obtained the car from a man in Modesto California. He did not race the car but used it for time trials (autocrossing). I am looking for any information on the car. The car did not come with a logbook.

Thanks

Ol'_Motorhead · 16 Oct 2005, 16:12 (Ref:1435217)

I can't help with the bodywork but as an owner of a Palliser/Winkelmann Formula Ford I can tell you your car is likely a WDB-1 (or2?) which refers to Len Whimhurst, Hugh Dibley and Formula B. I don't think there were that many of those cars sold in North America. Whimhurst was the designer who formerly worked with Lola and Brabham and Dibley was a BOAC pilot and race driver who is described as the team patron. I suspect he had a little more funding than his salary allowed but know little about him. I met him at a Can-Am race back in the sixties where he drove a Lola T-70.
BTW, Robert Winkelmann is still involved in historic racing and lives in the San Fran area.

Is there a VIN tag on the car? It should be on the bulkhead behind the seat and is also likely stamped into the chassis.
Palliser won the inaugural British Formula Atlantic in '69 or '70. They rose and fell within a few years due to rapid growth, underfinancing - typical pitfalls of a new business.
Here's a link to some history through their F3 efforts.

<http://www.f3classic.co.uk/Manufacturers/Palliser/palliser.htm>

I might be able to find a few contacts of WDB cars in the States. I'll send you what I can find via a private message.

HTH.

Ol'_Motorhead · 16 Oct 2005, 16:25 (Ref:1435222)

It was 1971 with Vern Schuppan that they won the Brit FA championship. I also remember reading they built a few one-off cars for hill climbs and solo events - it could be that's the origins of your car.

Ol'_Motorhead · 16 Oct 2005, 18:33 (Ref:1435334)

Check this out.

<<http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/other/wdb1x1/wdb1x1pp.htm>>

allenbrown · 16 Oct 2005, 19:09 (Ref:1435381)

We have covered a lot of this ground before:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48293

Allen

oskarchristen · 2 Mar 2006, 09:32 (Ref:1534493)

I own a Palliser WDB2, chassis No.2. I have this car since about 9 years. I know that the car before it came to Europe was in the States and was bought out of Florida.
Does anybody know more about the history of this car? I would very much like to trace the whole history down to the beginning.
Thenks for helping me.

Chris Townsend · 2 Mar 2006, 16:26 (Ref:1534751)

Oskar

Do you have a frame number? Can you tell me the name of the vendor in Florida?
I think that all the WDB2s were sold in America, but we might be able to come up
with some names!

Chris

Ol'_Motorhead · 2 Mar 2006, 23:34 (Ref:1535038)

Hi Chris:
I recently became aware of the revived Palliser/Winkelmann registry out of the USA.

<http://www.pallisercars.com>

It also has a Yahoo group site associated with it.

<palliser@yahoogroups.com>

Cheers.

allenbrown · 3 Mar 2006, 10:16 (Ref:1535286)

Chris

There's a stack of good information on this Palliser site, including a chassis number for Schuppan's WDB4, presumably his second one. Also a history page that says who got the first three WDB1s. Also clarity on the model numbers, notably clearing up the name of the F3 model.

Allen

Henrik Pedersen · 10 Mar 2006, 21:36 (Ref:1543203)

I have the orange Palliser F3 that Derek Lawrence raced in 1971, it has chassisno.: WD3/2-1, meaning that it is a F3 chassis, from the second series of F3 cars from the Palliser factory, and it´s the first chassis.
I still have the original chassisplate. Gareth´s car must then be WD3/2-2
From what I can see on the Palliser/Winkelmann website, the FF cars all have a F after WD.
The letter or digit just behind WD is the class of the car, the next number is the serie, and the last number is the number of this serie.
The car has been in my possesion for the last 14 years, it is now restored to it´s former glory, and I hope to race it frequent this summer.
Henrik Pedersen

**John Turner** · 10 Mar 2006, 21:40 (Ref:1543209)

Henrik, welcome back (2 posts in 4 years!), it's excellent news that you have the car restored and will be competing this year. Please keep us posted!

SteveRead · 2 May 2006, 11:34 (Ref:1599303)

This is my first go at this, so bear with me.

I picked up the ex-Terry Ogilvy Hardy WDB4 last year. It was a basket case and Peter Denty and his guys are doing a great job bringing it back. As far as I can ascertian it is the last Palliser ever built. Chassis AM 71 20. Anyone know of a later one? I think 4 WDB4's were made.

I have excellent help in the provenance dept as Robert Winkelmann is my cousin, and very much alive and well at 77.

I'm looking for a pair of magnesium uprights if anyone has a pair tucked away in the workshop. I'm guessing that these uprights were used in other cars, can anyone help me with this? Wink can't as the WDB4 never made it to the States until much later.

The Palliser's first outing will hopefully be later this year. I'm aiming for the Oulton Park gold cup meeting.

allenbrown · 2 May 2006, 11:40 (Ref:1599309)

Welcome Steve

The Palliser register has note of chassis "WDB4-5" with unknown AM number belonging to John Long (Bellevue, WA). This is said to be ex-Vern Schuppan.

Allen

SteveRead · 2 May 2006, 13:06 (Ref:1599353)

Allen,

I spent some time with John Long at Laguna last year. His chassis number is AM 71 06, this was what made me think mine is a later car. (AM 71 20) The bodywork on my car is different to Johns with a slightly wider nosecone and an all in one vent on the main body. The rear is the same. Chassis wise they look identical.

Cheers
Steve

allenbrown · 2 May 2006, 13:44 (Ref:1599376)

Hi Steve

You're quoting Arch Motors frame numbers which won't necessarily be in the same order as chassis number. Did you see the chassis plate on John Long's car? Does yours have a similar plate?

Allen

Davhut · 3 Nov 2006, 13:47 (Ref:1757135)

This car, I believe a WDB-4 FB was sent to the Winkelmann Distributor in Denver Colorado, "Rocky Mountain Winkelmann." The car was owned and driven by Keith G. Saunders (a friend, and the same man as mentioned in Lotus 41 thread), driven throughout the midwest SCCA division. Another friend and I worked on this vehicle, mechanicing for a couple events in 1971. This photo is from Lake Afton, Kansas, a purpose built road course around a park and lake somewhat south of Wichita.
The car arrived brand spanking new from the factory color orange and white with a Hart Lotus TwinCam installed. I don't know the chassis number, but it was a development of the chassis Schuppan drove to wins in the UK.
We spent a few days cleaning up the lines, adding rock screens, adjusting for the driver. It was a very nicely engineered car and easy to work on. I think most of the FB cars of the day were "over tired" and seemed to just add bigger and bigger "skins."

Davhut · 3 Nov 2006, 21:46 (Ref:1757402)

An early Winkelmann FB, I think this was Bob's personal car from West Coast, here being tested by Keith Saunders at Laguna, maybe around late 1970.

Davhut · 3 Nov 2006, 21:49 (Ref:1757404)

This brute is, to my knowledge, the only Winkelmann FA or F5000 car constructed. Tested I know by Vern Schuppan in the UK. I'm not sure it ever raced.
This and the preceeding photo are courtesy of the archived collection of Keith G. Saunders.